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Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

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Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#221

Post by geocar »

midoridensha wrote: post #2

Just reading the beginning, it looks like they're mainly complaining about proprietary OS vendors restricting users' choice in browsers through various shenanigans. Linux users (for desktop systems) don't have this problem, and for mobile, Android users can easily install Firefox (or better yet, Firefox Nightly) through the Google Play store and set it to be the default browser. Basically, if you want to have choice…

> Apple is now the worst offender in forcing you to use your computing the device only the way they want you to.

This is wrong. Google is the worst offender; Apple is an under-appreciated hero.

I have to use some web pages- for taxes and public services, for my banks and so on.

Those pages don’t work in Firefox and the only reason they work in Safari is because people don’t have a choice on Apple devices.

Of course they have a choice: they could just have bought a google phone, but I have worked in ads long enough to know I want to stay as far away from Google as I can, and I cannot tell you how sad this makes me to see my choice being threatened just so you could use chrome if you “wanted” to.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#223

Post by vnrao »

Lutger wrote: post #176
lovich wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>...(or better yet, Firefox Nightly) ... I think this is some of the disconnect between users on this site who don't understand why people would possibly actively choose iOS even with the lockin. Most people do not want to use a product that is constantly updating and adding features in that are going to be taken out shortly, for something as basic nowadays as web browsing. If you're on the cool new technology people…

You are making one mistake here: people actually do want a different toast if its significantly better than the current one that burns their edges too many times. Chrome was able to outcompete everything else on Windows, despite Microsoft trying to prevent it. People actively installed it, just because it was better, also the so-called stupid users were able to install it. If this was possible on apple devices, who k…

I agree broadly with your point but the subtleties have to be kept in mind.

The main difference between the Chrome/Windows and the current Apple situation is quite significant imo. Even though Microsoft tried their best to keep user share with IE like sneakily changing the defaults, installation of Chrome was always easy. Downloading and installation of Chrome was always an option and more importantly didn't require Microsoft's approval. That's not the case with iOS/iPadOS right now. A Chrome-like app couldn't be downloaded because Apple's not going to approve the app to be put on the App Store.

Also, from a user perspective, Safari is a good browser which manages to keep up with both Firefox and Chrome. This combination means that users don't really have that much of an incentive to switch.

To use your toast analogy, IE used to burn my toast to a sooty, carbonized block. Chrome used to do it perfectly. That's a pretty big differential in terms of performance. Now Safari isn't as bad as IE was in that era. So if it burns the edges every now and then, it's not really that big a deal simply because the user experience is more or less comparable to Chrome.

Users just want toast, but the difference isn't between great and mediocre anymore like it was with Chrome and IE. It's between very good and very good-ish.

This is precisely why I'm okay with Apple not allowing side-loading even though I would prefer greater choice. Apple's ecosystem isn't fundamentally as rotten as the Windows platform was in terms of performance. In fact, it's actually pretty good. Could things change? Sure. But as long as the user experience isn't shitty, I'm okay with the status quo.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#224

Post by actionfromafar »

vnrao wrote: post #223
Lutger wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are making one mistake here: people actually do want a different toast if its significantly better than the current one that burns their edges too many times. Chrome was able to outcompete everything else on Windows, despite Microsoft trying to prevent it. People actively installed it, just because it was better, also the so-called stupid users were able to install it. If this was possible on apple devices, who k…

I agree broadly with your point but the subtleties have to be kept in mind. The main difference between the Chrome/Windows and the current Apple situation is quite significant imo. Even though Microsoft tried their best to keep user share with IE like sneakily changing the defaults, installation of Chrome was always easy. Downloading and installation of Chrome was always an option and more importantly didn't require…

On Mac, I find Safari also uses less battery than either Chrome or Firefox.

(I use Firefox anyway, because I like its features and I'm a zealot too, but if on battery without a charger nearby, I use Safari.)

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#225

Post by elzbardico »

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #213
wrldos wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not that here. I use iOS because I don’t want anyone embedding several bloated half baked ancient hole ridden security nightmare browser engines in their apps which do everything possible to bypass system wide network restrictions so they can carry out whatever bad behaviour their business model thinks is acceptable. I want one system wide browser that respects the security configuration at OS level. I want this…

It is hard for me to disagree, because I understand that use case. The issue, however, appears to be that there is no 'version' that allows for it for users that accept the risks involved. It is not completely unlikely the conversation with cops. In their perfect world, everyone would sit quietly at home with hands on the table. Life is more messy than that though for obvious reasons. In other words, I understand the…

For those cases, there is Android. My youngest one has an android phone, and everyone else in our family has an iPhone. It is not like you are forced to buy an iPhone. Those restrictions are actually part of its market differentiator.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#226

Post by doctor_eval »

pffft8888 wrote: post #108
BulgarianIdiot wrote: post #86

Browsers are doing well. I'm more worried about the fact the browser is turning into the entire operating system these days. Even the apps use the browser engine for a lot of functionality these days. It's like a parasite, the OS is being eaten inside out. I'd be fine with this, it's a typical disruption process. Except the browser stack is full of legacy features, is bloated, and I'd hate for this to be the de-facto…

Browsers are using what the OS provides. I am not aware of any browser reimplementing Vulcan, DirectX or Metal, nor am I familiar with any browser reimplementing any feature of the underlying OS. It's just an application where you can build other applications and it provides access to some OS features via a scripting (higher level) language that's highly imperfect but thoroughly documented and used by millions. Speak…

> nor am I familiar with any browser reimplementing any feature of the underlying OS.

Well QUIC is replacing TCP for many HTTP connections now, and that’s implemented entirely in the browser. The OS provides the datagram layer but at this point it’s semantics. The bulk of the protocol is in the browser.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#227

Post by coldtea »

pbasista wrote: post #94
lovich wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>...(or better yet, Firefox Nightly) ... I think this is some of the disconnect between users on this site who don't understand why people would possibly actively choose iOS even with the lockin. Most people do not want to use a product that is constantly updating and adding features in that are going to be taken out shortly, for something as basic nowadays as web browsing. If you're on the cool new technology people…

> The restrictions are a feature and not a bug. The point of open OS is not to force its users to use unvetted apps. It is to give them an option to do so. The argument that someone might want to use a restricted OS because they want to only use vetted apps is flawed. The reason is that the users can use an open OS in the exactly same way, if they choose to do so.

>The point of open OS is not to force its users to use unvetted apps. It is to give them an option to do so.

And the point of a closed OS is that "giving the option" is as good as forcing the users.

Because third party devs with clout (facebook, instagram, etc and generally anyone whose apps users "must have", even if it's just their bank or local dominant rideshare or chat app) will, given the option, force users to install unvetted apps.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#228

Post by creata »

mihaaly wrote: post #90
lovich wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>...(or better yet, Firefox Nightly) ... I think this is some of the disconnect between users on this site who don't understand why people would possibly actively choose iOS even with the lockin. Most people do not want to use a product that is constantly updating and adding features in that are going to be taken out shortly, for something as basic nowadays as web browsing. If you're on the cool new technology people…

I am a user of browsers and though I like it the most the Firefox drives me crazy with the constant updating notices. I will never let any program auto update itself if I have a choice - sorry, I like to know if something is happening with the things I use - but the frequent bugging of the Firefox to update, update, update, update, update, update, update, update, update, update, update, update is driving me mad! Why…

Sorry if you've considered this (or if you just wanted to vent) but maybe installing Firefox through a package manager would help you control when it updates.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#229

Post by shawn-butler »

largepeepee wrote: post #128
largepeepee wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>My phone is the centre of my privacy, and I want it to be as solid and as safe as possible. If privacy was the main concern, you wouldn't be using any of the ad vendors, which includes apple. Yes, apple does sell your data. They just don't want others to do it too. There are plenty of smaller security focused phone vendors these days that doesn't intersect with user interest.

For those curious. Just look at the front page of the app store, literal ad right there amongst numerous locations. Their ad revenue has been expanding since 2016, and despite them hiding exact ad revenue in their quarterly, Tim Cook has mentioned in the investor call that "advertising and analytics, apple services revenue set an all-time record of 20.8 billion in q4".

Selling advertising in their own app store is not selling user data to third parties.

You are conflating lots of categories that maybe you don't quite understand. Not everything is a conspiracy.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#230

Post by Falkon1313 »

flakeoil wrote: post #104
midoridensha wrote: post #2

Just reading the beginning, it looks like they're mainly complaining about proprietary OS vendors restricting users' choice in browsers through various shenanigans. Linux users (for desktop systems) don't have this problem, and for mobile, Android users can easily install Firefox (or better yet, Firefox Nightly) through the Google Play store and set it to be the default browser. Basically, if you want to have choice…

> Microsoft OS isn't that bad these days Really? Edge is the default option, they push you to make Edge the default if you are using Chrome or Firefox and every now and then they ask you to accept Microsoft's default Windows settings. The show their MSN news by default, Bing is default, they show ads in the OS, they constantly ask you to log in to your Microsoft account, everything leads to MS 365 office products or…

I use Windows 10. Been using Firefox as the default browser since the day I installed it 7 years ago. It has never nagged me about Edge.

Duckduckgo is the default search engine. If I want Bing for some reason, I have to actually type it in the address bar.

I haven't gotten any ads in the OS, and the only time it tried to get me to log into a Microsoft account was once when I was first installing the OS 7 years ago. I use LibreOffice, not MS 365, and no MS cloud storage and nothing is pressuring me to switch. Google Drive is there in the rare cases I want to use it, and I still have a login to Dropbox if I want that.

I also never enabled Cortana or web results mixed into my local search or any of that other nonsense.

There's a whole lot of misguided FUD about Windows in the tech crowd. People who you would assume would know well enough to check the options they want or don't want at the time they install the OS. Doesn't require a tech genius to do basic configuration. It's kind of baffling how many can't figure that out.

An argument could be reasonably made that the defaults should be different, and if you just clicked 'Yes' to everything, you should get a configuration like mine. But that would be a bad faith argument. It's reasonable to set the defaults to things that match the OS company and for features to be 'On' (otherwise people wouldn't know they were there).

MacOS is the same about that stuff. Many of the defaults (backwards scrolling and hidden scrollbars) are practically unusable from a UX standpoint. They also default you to their own proprietary office software, browser, and other weird stuff with confusing UI. The keyboard isn't configured correctly and consistently by default (totally gets the editing keys wrong). Just like Windows or Linux, you have to configure it and choose which parts you want or don't want.

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