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Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

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Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#201

Post by bzzzt »

saurik wrote: post #135
lovich wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They're afraid they'll "break something". Right? I feel like my non technical social connections have an even greater learned helplessness from interacting with any sort of open to customization technology because they've learned that everytime they touch something the tool stops working in a way they don't understand. Most people are not going to spend days to weeks, and definitely not months to years learning how…

I dunno... the way it feels on the other side is that y'all think people are too dumb to not hurt themselves with hammers--which is true!!--and so, rather than trust that people who are afraid of hammers will simply avoid using a hammer they should be actively prevented from even owning a hammer, or even letting their friend or a hired carpenter use a hammer to help them, which is kind of overkill.

Relying on people not being dumb doesn't work out in practice.

There's lots of stuff you're not allowed to do because we figured out the average person can't do it without endangering others.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#202

Post by izacus »

rezonant wrote: post #158
izacus wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How exactly? Microsoft has been randomly resetting my default browser back to Edge on every big Windows update. They've thrown Edge on my desktop against my wish. They keep buggering me to change the default back. And yet, somehow, Chrome is still more popular. So what are those horrible tactics Google uses to brainwash people into using their browsers when both of their major competitors use their own operating syst…

Back in the IE days they (Google) did push it pretty hard. There are definitely still some cases where Google could (and should) do better about keeping their services browser-agnostic, but it's way less prominent than it was before. edited for clarity

They are pushing pretty hard RIGHT NOW.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#203

Post by izacus »

rxyz wrote: post #172
izacus wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How exactly? Microsoft has been randomly resetting my default browser back to Edge on every big Windows update. They've thrown Edge on my desktop against my wish. They keep buggering me to change the default back. And yet, somehow, Chrome is still more popular. So what are those horrible tactics Google uses to brainwash people into using their browsers when both of their major competitors use their own operating syst…

Google sometimes bugs you to download Chrome within unrelated search results.

How is that more effective that Microsoft outright resetting your default browser and pushing it in your face on reboots?

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#204

Post by izacus »

rezonant wrote: post #169
izacus wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft somehow keeps "accidentally" resetting my default browser (they love to do that on quarterly updates", they just threw an Edge icon on my desktop that reappears on every reboot and their default browser choice dialog is harassing you really hard to avoid changing the default away from Edge. They're doing a huge amount of dark pattern stuff to avoid people from using other browsers these days.

I remember this happening to me I think 2 times back in the early days of Windows 10 and the initial push for Edge after getting rid of Internet Explorer. And yeah, they shouldn't do that. But since then, I've used Windows 10 and now use Windows 11 on multiple devices, and in my immediate friends and family they all use it too, and this has not happened at all.

They absolutely do it on major updates when you get the fullscreen "Oh, we need to update your account again" form. If you miss the tiny links "Please don't" in the corner, it'll reset the browser and default search provider.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#205

Post by severino »

rezonant wrote: post #171
severino wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Android users can easily install Firefox (or better yet, Firefox Nightly) through the Google Play store Not every Android device has access to Google Play, yet Mozilla still doesn't provide an APK download for Firefox from its website to make sure those users can have their browser too, despite all of this complaining.

This is actually another example of where OSes get in the way of browser freedom. Because of Google Play Services and its dependency on phones that have Google Play Store, it may be more difficult to support multiple builds of the app than it should be. Still, this is a good point, would love to see Mozilla support non-GMS Android devices.

> Still, this is a good point, would love to see Mozilla support non-GMS Android devices

Well, actually, they "support" non-GMS Android devices in the sense that no Google services are required to run Firefox on Android. But you have to get the APK from unofficial sites like APKpure or APKmirror (trusting you're downloading a non-tampered file) or finding the appropriate build among all the releases in Github.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#206

Post by phendrenad2 »

Discussed 4 months ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32985713

The TL;DR on this blog post is that Mozilla is unhappy that Operating Systems push you to choose their preferred browser.

But really, what is the distinction between a browser and an OS? Why should they not be integrated? Why does a "web browser" need to exist as a standalone thing? Hand-wavy things like "user choice" don't apply here, because otherwise, why not demand that every part of the OS be modular? Why can't I swap out the USB stack on MacOS with a custom one? (Linux users mostly demand that anyway, but that's beside the point.)

It seems like this piece is a calculated move to keep people believing that "web browsers" are separate apps, and cannot or should not (either logically or emotionally) be incorporated into an OS. Ironically, it also tries to say that browsers are essential to modern technology, in which case, doesn't that show that they should be even more integrated with the "operating" "system" of the computer?

Personally, between Firefox and Chrome, I chose the lesser of two annoyances (Chrome) because it doesn't try to push a paid VPN or a paid Mozilla Pocket every time the browser updates (changelog: fixed bugs. also look at our pocket service!)

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#207

Post by rezonant »

severino wrote: post #205
rezonant wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is actually another example of where OSes get in the way of browser freedom. Because of Google Play Services and its dependency on phones that have Google Play Store, it may be more difficult to support multiple builds of the app than it should be. Still, this is a good point, would love to see Mozilla support non-GMS Android devices.

> Still, this is a good point, would love to see Mozilla support non-GMS Android devices Well, actually, they "support" non-GMS Android devices in the sense that no Google services are required to run Firefox on Android. But you have to get the APK from unofficial sites like APKpure or APKmirror (trusting you're downloading a non-tampered file) or finding the appropriate build among all the releases in Github.

Oh maybe I should have checked before replying. I don't think this is too hard for someone who wants a direct APK https://github.com/mozilla-mobile/fenix/releases

Perhaps the complaint is that they are not releasing to competing stores like Amazon? I would find it hard to believe that legit Firefox builds are not already on Fdroid

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#208

Post by amelius »

mtrower wrote: post #133
amelius wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want general purpose computers, look for industrial gear, not consumer products.

Industrial gear? What are you talking about here? Examples?

I'm talking about the kind of computers you would use when you'd build some industrial machine. E.g. say you make MRI machines. You're not going to put consumer hardware like a MacBook inside your MRI machine.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#209

Post by hardware2win »

em-bee wrote: post #196
LtWorf wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well it's how the mailto:blabla@blabla works.

yes, but the target for each of those is user-configurable. any request to another browser would go back to my preferred one. regardless, web-apps that depend on a specific browser should not exist.

If browsers had equal features support then yea

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#210

Post by rezonant »

izacus wrote: post #204
rezonant wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember this happening to me I think 2 times back in the early days of Windows 10 and the initial push for Edge after getting rid of Internet Explorer. And yeah, they shouldn't do that. But since then, I've used Windows 10 and now use Windows 11 on multiple devices, and in my immediate friends and family they all use it too, and this has not happened at all.

They absolutely do it on major updates when you get the fullscreen "Oh, we need to update your account again" form. If you miss the tiny links "Please don't" in the corner, it'll reset the browser and default search provider.

I've never got such a screen on a feature update. Perhaps it's because I've got local accounts?
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