What does Moz hope to accomplish? That Firefox will be used on iOS by any quantifiable amount of users when we all know only Chrome has to gain from opening iOS to their tracking and Google's ads? Such that Google completely dominates the web and any way of monetizing it, to be soon extended into "best rendered using Chrome" more than it is already? Why is Moz doing this, in the name of bland fake-juvenile "the web wants to be free" propaganda? Don't they have other problems to solve, such as their low single digit user base? Shouldn't they rather team up with Safari against Chrome or is Moz now turning to the dark side with this kind of nonsensical or outright corrupt propaganda?
Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)
131–140 of 349 posts
Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)
#132Earlier quoted context omitted.
>...(or better yet, Firefox Nightly) ... I think this is some of the disconnect between users on this site who don't understand why people would possibly actively choose iOS even with the lockin. Most people do not want to use a product that is constantly updating and adding features in that are going to be taken out shortly, for something as basic nowadays as web browsing. If you're on the cool new technology people…
> The restrictions are a feature and not a bug. The point of open OS is not to force its users to use unvetted apps. It is to give them an option to do so. The argument that someone might want to use a restricted OS because they want to only use vetted apps is flawed. The reason is that the users can use an open OS in the exactly same way, if they choose to do so.
I can think of one good case for not allowing sideloading of unverified apps.
If iOS only allows apple approved apps a employer/school cannot force me to install a intrusive monitoring app on a iphone/ipad.
Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)
#133Just reading the beginning, it looks like they're mainly complaining about proprietary OS vendors restricting users' choice in browsers through various shenanigans. Linux users (for desktop systems) don't have this problem, and for mobile, Android users can easily install Firefox (or better yet, Firefox Nightly) through the Google Play store and set it to be the default browser. Basically, if you want to have choice…
If you want general purpose computers, look for industrial gear, not consumer products.
Industrial gear? What are you talking about here? Examples?
Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)
#134Just reading the beginning, it looks like they're mainly complaining about proprietary OS vendors restricting users' choice in browsers through various shenanigans. Linux users (for desktop systems) don't have this problem, and for mobile, Android users can easily install Firefox (or better yet, Firefox Nightly) through the Google Play store and set it to be the default browser. Basically, if you want to have choice…
I was with up up until your statement: > Basically, if you want to have choice in a browser, don't use Apple products or a Microsoft OS . I get the "Apple products" bit - Apple famously refuses to allow you to install your own browser engine under the hood on iOS . But Microsoft? Can you qualify that with some concrete examples?
Microsoft somehow keeps "accidentally" resetting my default browser (they love to do that on quarterly updates", they just threw an Edge icon on my desktop that reappears on every reboot and their default browser choice dialog is harassing you really hard to avoid changing the default away from Edge.
They're doing a huge amount of dark pattern stuff to avoid people from using other browsers these days.
Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)
#135Earlier quoted context omitted.
"No one's that stupid" 99.9% of people are not like you. They barely even know the difference between Windows and Google. People who got online when smartphones entered the scene have a difficult time when I try to explain what "folders" and "files" are. I do a lot of tech support for family and friends. They NEVER enter settings or preferences for their OS or their browser. They're afraid they'll "break something".…
>They're afraid they'll "break something". Right? I feel like my non technical social connections have an even greater learned helplessness from interacting with any sort of open to customization technology because they've learned that everytime they touch something the tool stops working in a way they don't understand. Most people are not going to spend days to weeks, and definitely not months to years learning how…
I dunno... the way it feels on the other side is that y'all think people are too dumb to not hurt themselves with hammers--which is true!!--and so, rather than trust that people who are afraid of hammers will simply avoid using a hammer they should be actively prevented from even owning a hammer, or even letting their friend or a hired carpenter use a hammer to help them, which is kind of overkill.
Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)
#136Earlier quoted context omitted.
It’s only iOS/iPadOS that Apple does this with. And iOS makes up 18% of web traffic. That’s a lot, but it means 82% can use the browser they want at any time. Chrome makes up 80-odd percent of all other traffic, so the stats overall look like: Chrome: 65.6% iOS Safari: 18% All others: 16.4% Personally, I’m more concerned about Chrome than iOS.
> Personally, I’m more concerned about Chrome than iOS. Agreed. If the doors open, then Google will fight for the iOS browser space. And their ability to leverage all of their properties is pretty powerful here. If Chrome takes over iOS, then that's it. No one will bother with site compatibility for anything else. Firefox's chances to stay relevant in that world will be slim.
You mean Google will deliver a better browser than what currently iOS users have to the point that iOS users will decide to move away from the default set in their OS... and Apple won't be competent enough to compete?
Because that's the only scenario where that happens and it's plausible - the exact scenario we were in with IE6 where Microsoft refused to provide a better browser and keep up with then new and much better Mozilla and later Chrome browsers.
Good product doesn't need monopolist lockdown to be used. If Safari as as good as Apple fans say it is, this massive change won't happen. If Safari sucks, then iOS users are better off with Chrome until someone better comes along. A lot of them will probably choose Firefox though, since it suits them better. Or Brave. Or Vivaldi.
It's called competition and drives towards better products for users. It's incredible how anti-free market some of megacorp fans here are. Outright refusing to allow existence of Firefox and other free browsers on iOS is a much worse take than we've ever seen from likes of Microsoft.
Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)
#137Earlier quoted context omitted.
and exactly why should anyone be allowed to target their links to a specific browser instead of letting me use the browser of my choice?
For the majority of links there is no particular reason but for some specific cases where the link brings you to a App that the developer has build with that browser in mind it is useful. I want a way to force the opening of that app in the browser for which I have tested and don't want to receive support calls that the app is not working because you opened it in your obscure browser of choice.
such apps should not exist. it's a throwback to the old internet explorer days.
you will receive support calls from people who don't run windows and thus don't have edge
Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)
#138Earlier quoted context omitted.
The millions if not billions of Windows users who choose to use Chrome? Also, using the OS default is also a choice. If someone uses Edge in Windows, that's a choice. It's only iOS where users have no choice.
Chrome is also pushed quite aggressively by Google
How exactly? Microsoft has been randomly resetting my default browser back to Edge on every big Windows update. They've thrown Edge on my desktop against my wish. They keep buggering me to change the default back.
And yet, somehow, Chrome is still more popular. So what are those horrible tactics Google uses to brainwash people into using their browsers when both of their major competitors use their own operating systems to either harass or ouright force the use of their browsers for the users?
Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)
#139Just reading the beginning, it looks like they're mainly complaining about proprietary OS vendors restricting users' choice in browsers through various shenanigans. Linux users (for desktop systems) don't have this problem, and for mobile, Android users can easily install Firefox (or better yet, Firefox Nightly) through the Google Play store and set it to be the default browser. Basically, if you want to have choice…
>...(or better yet, Firefox Nightly) ... I think this is some of the disconnect between users on this site who don't understand why people would possibly actively choose iOS even with the lockin. Most people do not want to use a product that is constantly updating and adding features in that are going to be taken out shortly, for something as basic nowadays as web browsing. If you're on the cool new technology people…
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Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)
#140Title had me expecting something akin to window decorations versus seamless free form, web service widgets and integrating browser features with operating system functionality.
Instead this is about bundling default software and manipulating user choices of default software.
Looking at AR/VR and voice agent appliances that debate may be more relevant again, as I don't think anyone even dares to hope for free choice of object/speech recognition providers, app stores, or web browser engines. Now consider more complex systems integrate these, like smart cars or smart homes or smart fridges.