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Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

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Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#121

Post by pyaamb »

pyaamb wrote: post #114
wrldos wrote: post #106

I can't honestly even consider reading this from the vendor in question. I appreciate Firefox and use it on a regular basis but no browser, OS vendor or standard agency out there has an ounce of respect left from me. Nothing any OS vendor or browser vendor has done in the last decade has been a user-focused positive experience. They have become delivery tools for revenue only rather than information access. Even Fire…

I'd like to see more money that Mozilla receives go into browser development. I was excited about the Servo project but feel like maybe they aren't serious about doing a fresh rust implementation

that being said, i think FirefoxOS was a good idea. I just wish they would commit fully and follow through.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#122

Post by [deleted] »

mardifoufs wrote: post #65
sam_lowry_ wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ubuntu is dead.

It's by far the best distro, even for production loads. I know, controversial opinion, but ubuntu has never been better (even if I dislike snaps). And almost everything is now built to run on Ubuntu first. Even RHEL would require tinkering for tons of software I need in dev/prod.

[deleted]

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#123

Post by midoridensha »

Toutouxc wrote: post #107
loup-vaillant wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excuse me, your conclusion doesn't seem to follow from your premises. I mean, "Please OS vendor I want something simple. That hidden `sideload` option is complicated, please lock down my machine." Like, seriously? No one's that stupid. Sure most people want a decent, clear default option, but no one want that to be the only option. At least not for themselves. Because for some reason I see many people arguing that ot…

> Like, seriously? No one's that stupid. I just want to ask you something. I'm a software developer, able to build out of parts and configure a headless Linux box, unlock the bootloader on, flash and root an Android phone and use both successfully, and "Please OS vendor I want something simple, ... , please lock down my machine" is literally THE reason why I got an expensive iPhone as my last phone instead of a cheap…

If you have two otherwise-equal choices, but one has great default settings, but allows you to change things if you really really want, and the other has the same great defaults, but is locked down and doesn't allow you any choice, then if you pick the locked-down choice, I think you're frankly quite stupid.

What I think is really stupid is how many people seem to think that having the ability to change things means that they absolutely MUST go through all the settings menus and change things. What really galls me is how many so-called technologists even believe this. It comes up all the time in Gnome vs. KDE arguments, and I'm seeing the same mentality here. If you don't want to change things, then don't.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#124

Post by mtrower »

kajecounterhack wrote: post #69
lovich wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>...(or better yet, Firefox Nightly) ... I think this is some of the disconnect between users on this site who don't understand why people would possibly actively choose iOS even with the lockin. Most people do not want to use a product that is constantly updating and adding features in that are going to be taken out shortly, for something as basic nowadays as web browsing. If you're on the cool new technology people…

Is it really a feature to not be allowed to use non-webkit Chrome on my iPhone, even if it might unlock superior features? Is it a feature that Google Fi can't work optimally on iPhone thanks to their anti-competitive restrictions? Is it a feature that I have to use Siri, which is way inferior to Google Assistant, when communicating in CarPlay? Is the planned obsolescence a feature too? My 12 year old Mac laptop is d…

> My 12 year old Mac laptop is dead because MacOS does not allow me to upgrade past a certain version, and the cryptography primitives do not update past that so no recent browsers support the platform

What version of macOS are you stuck on? It can’t even run Sierra? https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/109.0.1/system-require...

The bigger issue for me is increasing requirements. My 2012 MacBook Air went to absolute dog when upgrading to Catalina. Terrible user experience (which, I believe, is one reason why Apple sets requirements the way they do).

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#125

Post by HeckFeck »

wrldos wrote: post #106

I can't honestly even consider reading this from the vendor in question. I appreciate Firefox and use it on a regular basis but no browser, OS vendor or standard agency out there has an ounce of respect left from me. Nothing any OS vendor or browser vendor has done in the last decade has been a user-focused positive experience. They have become delivery tools for revenue only rather than information access. Even Fire…

> Nothing any OS vendor or browser vendor has done in the last decade has been a user-focused positive experience. They have become delivery tools for revenue only rather than information access.

Succinctly put. I've felt this shift everywhere; it killed the fun and curiosity I felt when I first encountered computers and the web. I can't recommend anything in good faith. When I open a new website or program I dread to think what it is collecting from me... who is looking at it, where it is stored... forever.

It just seems so powerless to resist, especially when so much of wider society expects you to use $CHATAPP or even $DATING_APP. I can't imagine a first date where I scold the lady on her use of proprietary software: "Please install this XAMPP-Mastodon-Matrix chat app from the F-Droid store or I won't speak to you again"

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#126

Post by midoridensha »

flakeoil wrote: post #104
midoridensha wrote: post #2

Just reading the beginning, it looks like they're mainly complaining about proprietary OS vendors restricting users' choice in browsers through various shenanigans. Linux users (for desktop systems) don't have this problem, and for mobile, Android users can easily install Firefox (or better yet, Firefox Nightly) through the Google Play store and set it to be the default browser. Basically, if you want to have choice…

> Microsoft OS isn't that bad these days Really? Edge is the default option, they push you to make Edge the default if you are using Chrome or Firefox and every now and then they ask you to accept Microsoft's default Windows settings. The show their MSN news by default, Bing is default, they show ads in the OS, they constantly ask you to log in to your Microsoft account, everything leads to MS 365 office products or…

I was only addressing how hard it is to install a browser of your choice on Windows, that's all. Honestly, I haven't used Windows in a while so maybe I'm out-of-date, maybe it's much worse than I thought.

Ads on the start menu and stuff like that is horrible, I agree, but it's a different issue than browser choice.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#127

Post by phkahler »

lovich wrote: post #38
midoridensha wrote: post #2

Just reading the beginning, it looks like they're mainly complaining about proprietary OS vendors restricting users' choice in browsers through various shenanigans. Linux users (for desktop systems) don't have this problem, and for mobile, Android users can easily install Firefox (or better yet, Firefox Nightly) through the Google Play store and set it to be the default browser. Basically, if you want to have choice…

>...(or better yet, Firefox Nightly) ... I think this is some of the disconnect between users on this site who don't understand why people would possibly actively choose iOS even with the lockin. Most people do not want to use a product that is constantly updating and adding features in that are going to be taken out shortly, for something as basic nowadays as web browsing. If you're on the cool new technology people…

>> The restrictions are a feature and not a bug.

No. Stability is a feature. Lack of choice is restrictive.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#128

Post by largepeepee »

largepeepee wrote: post #58
kolinko wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“offender” suggests undue negativity. For me, the biggest selling point of iOS is it’s lock in - be it in browsers or the store. My phone is the centre of my privacy, and I want it to be as solid and as safe as possible. So far nobody developed a mobile system that is more open and just as safe and robust.

>My phone is the centre of my privacy, and I want it to be as solid and as safe as possible. If privacy was the main concern, you wouldn't be using any of the ad vendors, which includes apple. Yes, apple does sell your data. They just don't want others to do it too. There are plenty of smaller security focused phone vendors these days that doesn't intersect with user interest.

For those curious.

Just look at the front page of the app store, literal ad right there amongst numerous locations.

Their ad revenue has been expanding since 2016, and despite them hiding exact ad revenue in their quarterly, Tim Cook has mentioned in the investor call that "advertising and analytics, apple services revenue set an all-time record of 20.8 billion in q4".

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#129

Post by cowl »

em-bee wrote: post #60
hardware2win wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I see this is not about opening normal links This is about opening link targeted to edge "Copy the following test link: microsoft-edge: https://www.betanews.com "

and exactly why should anyone be allowed to target their links to a specific browser instead of letting me use the browser of my choice?

For the majority of links there is no particular reason but for some specific cases where the link brings you to a App that the developer has build with that browser in mind it is useful. I want a way to force the opening of that app in the browser for which I have tested and don't want to receive support calls that the app is not working because you opened it in your obscure browser of choice.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#130

Post by flohofwoe »

askonomm wrote: post #117
iSnow wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am honestly glad that the EU forces vendors to put the customer first. I won't be sad if they force opening of the walled garden that is the iOS app store.

> customers first > opening of walled garden Yeah, I wonder how secure those customers would be when any kind of third party app store can just show up and start releasing data stealing, virus-infested apps, with no oversight? The idea that allowing a wild west of things because "freedom" is somehow better for the end customer is very shortsighted. I've never had to assist anybody in my family who has an iPhone, that…

You mean there are no "data stealing, virus-infested" apps on the Apple app store? That's a very naive assumption ;)
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