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Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

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101–110 of 349 posts

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#101
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do try and evangalise for it when I'm with others and they complain about ads on their android web browsers. But it's a tough sell these days.

There was a lightly visited portal (news) that I got used to and started to bug me to turn off my adblocker (uBlock) if I want to read their materials (I do not call their duplicated things fetched from here and there articles). I stopped visiting them.

i used to have this for some sites too, but ublock seems to always get ahead eventually

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#102
Dear mozilla,

The web is dying under chrome, with the excuse that iOS has its responsibility in the stale doesn't help either.

It's dying, not because of vendors pushing their favorite flavor, but because it has a terrible, horrible API, that make building an app with tightly controller Ui and Ux atop of it a Sisyph-ian challenge.

It's horrible for 3 key points reasons:

- the insistance that the document oriented API (DOM/HTML) as a feature surface that covers app needs, and that all use cases can be address with enough work (regardless of this amount of work)

- the tremendous gap of customizable input api, that would allows easier visual and behavior customization, while enforcing third party expectations support (assistive tech should be able handle it same way as «builtin» input)

- the insistance that CSS flaws (global declarations) are not a roadblock, that implicit, hidden states (from DOM) that can be guessed through JS event handling is a reliable enough solution.

The lack of initiative to solve those problems either means that care is lacking, or that the API is good enough.

The API will be the death of the web. Google won't solve it, Apple won't solve it.

DO IT. If the API is indeed good enough, prove it building an extension atop of it. Leverage your incredible work of those 10 last years on your engine to build the ultimate development platform. Implement it atop standard to have a backward compatibility. Propose it in a first class citizen form to take the initiative on hybride native app with great replacement of the mess Electron is.

To me you have no choice, the alternative is death of the web. At some point, history will be forgotten, and a proprietary vendor will do that, the flash way.

The world would be grateful, and done properly, you'll take back a big chunk of control on the web standardisation, and have large opportunities for sides monetization.

Make the web great. It's your job, only you have an incentive.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#103

Browsers are doing well. I'm more worried about the fact the browser is turning into the entire operating system these days. Even the apps use the browser engine for a lot of functionality these days. It's like a parasite, the OS is being eaten inside out. I'd be fine with this, it's a typical disruption process. Except the browser stack is full of legacy features, is bloated, and I'd hate for this to be the de-facto…

> Except the browser stack is full of legacy features

Examples?

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#104

Just reading the beginning, it looks like they're mainly complaining about proprietary OS vendors restricting users' choice in browsers through various shenanigans. Linux users (for desktop systems) don't have this problem, and for mobile, Android users can easily install Firefox (or better yet, Firefox Nightly) through the Google Play store and set it to be the default browser. Basically, if you want to have choice…

> Microsoft OS isn't that bad these days

Really? Edge is the default option, they push you to make Edge the default if you are using Chrome or Firefox and every now and then they ask you to accept Microsoft's default Windows settings.

The show their MSN news by default, Bing is default, they show ads in the OS, they constantly ask you to log in to your Microsoft account, everything leads to MS 365 office products or MS cloud storage.

It's a horrible OS and I wonder how long this can fly by any anti-trust measures.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#105

Browsers are doing well. I'm more worried about the fact the browser is turning into the entire operating system these days. Even the apps use the browser engine for a lot of functionality these days. It's like a parasite, the OS is being eaten inside out. I'd be fine with this, it's a typical disruption process. Except the browser stack is full of legacy features, is bloated, and I'd hate for this to be the de-facto…

The browser turning into an operating system (or rather a separate meta-platform that provides a common wrapper over operating system services) has already happened a long time ago.

And while many web APIs indeed 'suck', they're still roughly in the same ballpark as traditional OS APIs when it comes to legacy features, unfixable design warts and general 'pain of use' (e.g. it's not like native development is all rainbow-farting unicorns, while web development is eternal pain and suffering - it's both 'mildly annoying' most of the time).

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#106
I can't honestly even consider reading this from the vendor in question. I appreciate Firefox and use it on a regular basis but no browser, OS vendor or standard agency out there has an ounce of respect left from me.

Nothing any OS vendor or browser vendor has done in the last decade has been a user-focused positive experience. They have become delivery tools for revenue only rather than information access. Even Firefox which is turning up now with crapware splash screens turned on by default.

Until that changes, I'm deaf to any position.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#107
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>...(or better yet, Firefox Nightly) ... I think this is some of the disconnect between users on this site who don't understand why people would possibly actively choose iOS even with the lockin. Most people do not want to use a product that is constantly updating and adding features in that are going to be taken out shortly, for something as basic nowadays as web browsing. If you're on the cool new technology people…

Excuse me, your conclusion doesn't seem to follow from your premises. I mean, "Please OS vendor I want something simple. That hidden `sideload` option is complicated, please lock down my machine." Like, seriously? No one's that stupid. Sure most people want a decent, clear default option, but no one want that to be the only option. At least not for themselves. Because for some reason I see many people arguing that ot…

> Like, seriously? No one's that stupid.

I just want to ask you something. I'm a software developer, able to build out of parts and configure a headless Linux box, unlock the bootloader on, flash and root an Android phone and use both successfully, and "Please OS vendor I want something simple, ... , please lock down my machine" is literally THE reason why I got an expensive iPhone as my last phone instead of a cheaper Android.

Would you say that I'm stupid?

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#108

Browsers are doing well. I'm more worried about the fact the browser is turning into the entire operating system these days. Even the apps use the browser engine for a lot of functionality these days. It's like a parasite, the OS is being eaten inside out. I'd be fine with this, it's a typical disruption process. Except the browser stack is full of legacy features, is bloated, and I'd hate for this to be the de-facto…

Browsers are using what the OS provides. I am not aware of any browser reimplementing Vulcan, DirectX or Metal, nor am I familiar with any browser reimplementing any feature of the underlying OS. It's just an application where you can build other applications and it provides access to some OS features via a scripting (higher level) language that's highly imperfect but thoroughly documented and used by millions. Speaking of hardware implementation for browser runtime, I just googled in the direction of WASM-in-hardware and came across this: https://github.com/lastmjs/wasm-metal

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#109
post #97

"Operating system are holding them back" Yeah. It would be nicer if they were holding it back a LOT MORE.

This I can agree with. I was hoping that Apple was going to actually succeed in doing this with iOS but it looks like regulatory bodies are ganging up on them and their motivations weren't entirely honest. They are possibly the least shit vendor still though, not the best. If only they had a decent plugin model for ad blocking.

I await the inevitable bloated 3rd party apps which literally just embed their own browsers to circumvent the device level control we actually had for a bit there over the network layer...

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