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Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

research.mozilla.org

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Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#191

Post by Devasta »

bombolo wrote: post #182
Devasta wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My parents are not technical, I don't want to have to worry about their phones or computers, so they use iphones and ipads, and I have a pi-hole connected to their router that clears away most ads. They like going to the app store and knowing there is at least some level of curation on the apps. If they suddenly have to start dealing with competing app stores and sideloading and menus and all that stuff their experie…

Do you think suddenly iphones will come out of the box with competing app stores? What made this strange thought pop into your head?

I think they'll visit sites and instead of being recommended to install an app, they'll be recommended to install an app with a redirection to a different app store.

Apple takes a huge cut of the money spent on the app store, and everyone will have a huge incentive to move users to different stores if they can. This isn't difficult to understand if you thought about it for more than a minute.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#192

Post by LtWorf »

em-bee wrote: post #137
cowl wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the majority of links there is no particular reason but for some specific cases where the link brings you to a App that the developer has build with that browser in mind it is useful. I want a way to force the opening of that app in the browser for which I have tested and don't want to receive support calls that the app is not working because you opened it in your obscure browser of choice.

such apps should not exist. it's a throwback to the old internet explorer days. you will receive support calls from people who don't run windows and thus don't have edge

Well it's how the mailto:blabla@blabla works.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#193

Post by toastal »

BulgarianIdiot wrote: post #86

Browsers are doing well. I'm more worried about the fact the browser is turning into the entire operating system these days. Even the apps use the browser engine for a lot of functionality these days. It's like a parasite, the OS is being eaten inside out. I'd be fine with this, it's a typical disruption process. Except the browser stack is full of legacy features, is bloated, and I'd hate for this to be the de-facto…

But this also allows launching points for new OSs and less supported OSs to get ‘application’ support from many vendors that don't yet support a native app—especially of the proprietary variety where maintainers can't build it themselves. Entire OSs have been built on this model: Firefox OS, Chrome OS, KaiOS, Capyloon, Peppermint OS.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#194

Post by rezonant »

tuyiown wrote: post #102

Dear mozilla, The web is dying under chrome, with the excuse that iOS has its responsibility in the stale doesn't help either. It's dying, not because of vendors pushing their favorite flavor, but because it has a terrible, horrible API, that make building an app with tightly controller Ui and Ux atop of it a Sisyph-ian challenge. It's horrible for 3 key points reasons: - the insistance that the document oriented API…

> - the insistance that CSS flaws (global declarations) are not a roadblock, that implicit, hidden states (from DOM) that can be guessed through JS event handling is a reliable enough solution.

There is no such insistence, in fact CSS layers, container queries, CSS variables, and Houdini are just some examples of improvements shipped that apply here.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#195

Post by rezonant »

mihaaly wrote: post #188
rezonant wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The primary "new features" of a new browser release are (A) security fixes and (B) support for new web standards, which websites will adopt. If you are not a security expert or a web developer, how are you supposed to judge whether these new features are something you want to upgrade for? You probably won't even know that you're missing these new features-- if you wait long enough to upgrade, you might fall victim to…

I wrote to do security only updates, look back. But new standards in every 2 weeks? You are kidding, right?! : )) And security updates as well every other weeks?! (or sometimes two in one day or in three days in between: just checked the update history) Are the software products in THAT poor quality, really?! Then those should not be released yet! Those are THE vulnaribility then. It is a scam then if this is deliber…

> But new standards in every 2 weeks? You are kidding, right?!

There are hundreds of changes to standards in various stages. And bugs happen in those implementations.

In fact, standards related changes land in browsers source trees _far_ more often than every two weeks, that's just the iterative development cycle that they package these changes (_and security changes_) into.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#196

Post by em-bee »

LtWorf wrote: post #192
em-bee wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

such apps should not exist. it's a throwback to the old internet explorer days. you will receive support calls from people who don't run windows and thus don't have edge

Well it's how the mailto:blabla@blabla works.

yes, but the target for each of those is user-configurable. any request to another browser would go back to my preferred one.

regardless, web-apps that depend on a specific browser should not exist.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#197

Post by LtWorf »

askonomm wrote: post #117
iSnow wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am honestly glad that the EU forces vendors to put the customer first. I won't be sad if they force opening of the walled garden that is the iOS app store.

> customers first > opening of walled garden Yeah, I wonder how secure those customers would be when any kind of third party app store can just show up and start releasing data stealing, virus-infested apps, with no oversight? The idea that allowing a wild west of things because "freedom" is somehow better for the end customer is very shortsighted. I've never had to assist anybody in my family who has an iPhone, that…

Are you the guy who made the famous spot against right to repair? You know… if you can repair your phone you will get raped.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EozPi1qmH44

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#198

Post by aa-jv »

Deukhoofd wrote: post #81
aa-jv wrote: post #40

The iron of this Browser-supremacy ideology, delivered as a .PDF file... I'd wager PDF Viewers are more important than browsers. :P

What browser are you using that is not also a PDF Viewer?

The one provided for me by my operating system. :)

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#199

Post by rezonant »

ddevault wrote: post #165

Wow, I don't think anyone who commented here actually read anything in the paper. I strongly agree that Mozilla makes constant mis-steps and that the scope of web browsers is hugely problematic, but to dismiss anything they say outright over those concerns is very immature of the readers commenting here. Start from page 38 if you want to quickly get an idea of what Mozilla is complaining about here -- and they're god…

Every time browser freedom comes up, a good solid half of HN commentators claim they want a locked down system for themselves. They want a system they cannot hack on. So when these stories come up, it's more like "Don't Hacker News"

Another minority points out that Linux is hackable and we should all just use that. I assume the number of these comments would be larger if the vast majority of Linux desktop users weren't tinkering with their X configs or fixing something that wildly broke after their update.

If Apple implemented the web without obvious commercially incentivized malicious compliance, I wouldn't care as much if they restricted the browser, but I'd still care, because computing should be open. I am a fan of the Apple that made the 1984 commercial, even if I know now that it was the same marketing shit they always pull. They only cared that it wasn't their monopoly.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#200

Post by silon42 »

lovich wrote: post #38
midoridensha wrote: post #2

Just reading the beginning, it looks like they're mainly complaining about proprietary OS vendors restricting users' choice in browsers through various shenanigans. Linux users (for desktop systems) don't have this problem, and for mobile, Android users can easily install Firefox (or better yet, Firefox Nightly) through the Google Play store and set it to be the default browser. Basically, if you want to have choice…

>...(or better yet, Firefox Nightly) ... I think this is some of the disconnect between users on this site who don't understand why people would possibly actively choose iOS even with the lockin. Most people do not want to use a product that is constantly updating and adding features in that are going to be taken out shortly, for something as basic nowadays as web browsing. If you're on the cool new technology people…

This is why I use Linux, where I can have a choice to run MATE for a decade while GNOME, MS/Windows (especially 11) (and Apple too) are destroying their systems (from my viewpoint at least).
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