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Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

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Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#151

Post by rezonant »

mihaaly wrote: post #90
lovich wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>...(or better yet, Firefox Nightly) ... I think this is some of the disconnect between users on this site who don't understand why people would possibly actively choose iOS even with the lockin. Most people do not want to use a product that is constantly updating and adding features in that are going to be taken out shortly, for something as basic nowadays as web browsing. If you're on the cool new technology people…

I am a user of browsers and though I like it the most the Firefox drives me crazy with the constant updating notices. I will never let any program auto update itself if I have a choice - sorry, I like to know if something is happening with the things I use - but the frequent bugging of the Firefox to update, update, update, update, update, update, update, update, update, update, update, update is driving me mad! Why…

The primary "new features" of a new browser release are (A) security fixes and (B) support for new web standards, which websites will adopt. If you are not a security expert or a web developer, how are you supposed to judge whether these new features are something you want to upgrade for? You probably won't even know that you're missing these new features-- if you wait long enough to upgrade, you might fall victim to a long patched vulnerability or your web experience will start to break in subtle ways. This isn't a flaw of the web but a feature, we (the web developer community) have fought long and hard for the browser developers to stay up to date with the web's changing feature set so that we have less of a "feature window" to target.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#152

Post by Devasta »

loup-vaillant wrote: post #61
lovich wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>...(or better yet, Firefox Nightly) ... I think this is some of the disconnect between users on this site who don't understand why people would possibly actively choose iOS even with the lockin. Most people do not want to use a product that is constantly updating and adding features in that are going to be taken out shortly, for something as basic nowadays as web browsing. If you're on the cool new technology people…

Excuse me, your conclusion doesn't seem to follow from your premises. I mean, "Please OS vendor I want something simple. That hidden `sideload` option is complicated, please lock down my machine." Like, seriously? No one's that stupid. Sure most people want a decent, clear default option, but no one want that to be the only option. At least not for themselves. Because for some reason I see many people arguing that ot…

My parents are not technical, I don't want to have to worry about their phones or computers, so they use iphones and ipads, and I have a pi-hole connected to their router that clears away most ads.

They like going to the app store and knowing there is at least some level of curation on the apps. If they suddenly have to start dealing with competing app stores and sideloading and menus and all that stuff their experience will undoubtedly be worse for it.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#153

Post by erik »

izacus wrote: post #136
erik wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Personally, I’m more concerned about Chrome than iOS. Agreed. If the doors open, then Google will fight for the iOS browser space. And their ability to leverage all of their properties is pretty powerful here. If Chrome takes over iOS, then that's it. No one will bother with site compatibility for anything else. Firefox's chances to stay relevant in that world will be slim.

You mean Google will deliver a better browser than what currently iOS users have to the point that iOS users will decide to move away from the default set in their OS... and Apple won't be competent enough to compete? Because that's the only scenario where that happens and it's plausible - the exact scenario we were in with IE6 where Microsoft refused to provide a better browser and keep up with then new and much bet…

> You mean Google will deliver a better browser than what currently iOS users have to the point that iOS users will decide to move away from the default

No, I mean that Google will use their search monopoly, along with their dominant position across other product areas to undercut the market share of any competing browser. Any merit Chrome has is dwarfed by the strength of Google’s ability to push it on users.

I have many complaints about Apple’s handling of iOS. But it seems to me that their stance on iOS browsers is the only thing preventing the web from becoming a Blink rendering engine monoculture.

I don’t like Apple’s approach. But I’m also concerned about the prospect of a Blink-only future.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#154

Post by atahanacar »

tannhaeuser wrote: post #131

What does Moz hope to accomplish? That Firefox will be used on iOS by any quantifiable amount of users when we all know only Chrome has to gain from opening iOS to their tracking and Google's ads? Such that Google completely dominates the web and any way of monetizing it, to be soon extended into "best rendered using Chrome" more than it is already? Why is Moz doing this, in the name of bland fake-juvenile "the web w…

>Don't they have other problems to solve, such as their low single digit user base?

And how will they do it without first addressing the vendor lock-in issue?

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#155

Post by saurik »

msh wrote: post #132
pbasista wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The restrictions are a feature and not a bug. The point of open OS is not to force its users to use unvetted apps. It is to give them an option to do so. The argument that someone might want to use a restricted OS because they want to only use vetted apps is flawed. The reason is that the users can use an open OS in the exactly same way, if they choose to do so.

I can think of one good case for not allowing sideloading of unverified apps. If iOS only allows apple approved apps a employer/school cannot force me to install a intrusive monitoring app on a iphone/ipad.

That would be cool... except that Apple in fact approves intrusive monitoring apps--hell: they even have an Enterprise program that lets companies build apps for their employees that don't require App Store approval!--and then makes it so that not only can they be installed but the device is so locked down that you can't tamper with them, via Mobile Device Management.

https://developer.apple.com/programs/enterprise/

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#156

Post by oblio »

the_other wrote: post #24
midoridensha wrote: post #2

Just reading the beginning, it looks like they're mainly complaining about proprietary OS vendors restricting users' choice in browsers through various shenanigans. Linux users (for desktop systems) don't have this problem, and for mobile, Android users can easily install Firefox (or better yet, Firefox Nightly) through the Google Play store and set it to be the default browser. Basically, if you want to have choice…

It’s only iOS/iPadOS that Apple does this with. And iOS makes up 18% of web traffic. That’s a lot, but it means 82% can use the browser they want at any time. Chrome makes up 80-odd percent of all other traffic, so the stats overall look like: Chrome: 65.6% iOS Safari: 18% All others: 16.4% Personally, I’m more concerned about Chrome than iOS.

> And iOS makes up 18% of web traffic. That’s a lot, but it means 82% can use the browser they want at any time.

The hard truth is that 18% of traffic is probably 50% of the money.

In developed countries it's probably 75%-80% of the money.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#157

Post by oblio »

sam_lowry_ wrote: post #30
krono wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been overhearing lots of complaints coming out of the Ubuntu corner about how everything is moving to snap exclusive distribution. Not too familiar with the whole snap ordeal myself, but I understand it is quite the shitshow and that can't be good for the Linux browser landscape.

Ubuntu is dead.

Statistics?

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#158

Post by rezonant »

izacus wrote: post #138
agos wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chrome is also pushed quite aggressively by Google

How exactly? Microsoft has been randomly resetting my default browser back to Edge on every big Windows update. They've thrown Edge on my desktop against my wish. They keep buggering me to change the default back. And yet, somehow, Chrome is still more popular. So what are those horrible tactics Google uses to brainwash people into using their browsers when both of their major competitors use their own operating syst…

Back in the IE days they (Google) did push it pretty hard. There are definitely still some cases where Google could (and should) do better about keeping their services browser-agnostic, but it's way less prominent than it was before.

edited for clarity

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#159

Post by pas »

anders_p wrote: post #76
loup-vaillant wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excuse me, your conclusion doesn't seem to follow from your premises. I mean, "Please OS vendor I want something simple. That hidden `sideload` option is complicated, please lock down my machine." Like, seriously? No one's that stupid. Sure most people want a decent, clear default option, but no one want that to be the only option. At least not for themselves. Because for some reason I see many people arguing that ot…

"No one's that stupid" 99.9% of people are not like you. They barely even know the difference between Windows and Google. People who got online when smartphones entered the scene have a difficult time when I try to explain what "folders" and "files" are. I do a lot of tech support for family and friends. They NEVER enter settings or preferences for their OS or their browser. They're afraid they'll "break something".…

You are falling prey to your own model :)

The important thing to notice is that the median user's mind is neutral about features like lockdown, security, side-loading, and everything else, because they don't think about features. They think about concrete interactions, like "playing candy crush", or "talking to grandma/grandkid", or "buying stocks", or "trying that app that my coworker showed me".

And when they can't do it ... "it didn't work for me" ... they, ironically wisely, don't even speculate why it did not work. The folks you see on forums who recommend "doing factory reset and it'll work" or "clean the cache", etc... are obviously the "Dunning-Kruger poster kids".

Median users are monkey see monkey do, that's why if they see "it works on Ted's iPhone" then their thought is "I guess I'll get an iPhone". And ... it works. The US is iPhone-land.

...

And interestingly this hyper-pragmatic (arguably too narrow-minded) approach to technology is also what leads to the interesting cases when enough teenagers want Fortnite on their iThing. And that's when the generalizer machine of society can pick up this thing and sometimes it spits out useful principles. (Mostly we get just one more bad statute on the books.)

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#160

Post by nailer »

midoridensha wrote: post #2

Just reading the beginning, it looks like they're mainly complaining about proprietary OS vendors restricting users' choice in browsers through various shenanigans. Linux users (for desktop systems) don't have this problem, and for mobile, Android users can easily install Firefox (or better yet, Firefox Nightly) through the Google Play store and set it to be the default browser. Basically, if you want to have choice…

> if you want to have choice in a browser, don't use Apple products or a Microsoft OS

What Microsoft OS restricts your browser choice?

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