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Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

theatlanticwire.com

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Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#61

Post by philwelch »

dreamdu5t wrote: post #25
srdev wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what marknutter's intent was, but Foxconn really manufactures a lot of stuff beyond smartphones. PCs typically have Foxconn parts in them, as do routers. Any tablet you own has a good probability of being touched by Foxconn. Even if you get away from Foxconn completely, a lot of Chinese manufacturers have the same problems with less press. So the more pertinent question in my mind is, "Is there any compa…

I think the pertinent question is, "What constitutes ethically built technical gear?"

Aren't there some rare elements that are necessary for semiconductors to work that are only mined in impoverished African countries with poor political stability, working, and environmental conditions? Try going your life without ever using a semiconductor. You can't. Everything in the world is indirectly produced by a semiconductor. You'd have to practically move to Africa and become an open pit miner yourself.

On the other hand, people are fond of pointing out that people who work at Foxconn are choosing what is far and away the best of all available options. So it's really a matter of cultural relativism whether a given set of conditions is good or bad. 100 years from now, are people going to feel guilty about using software that was developed by programmers working in cubicles? It's more likely than you think.

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#62

Post by [deleted] »

redthrowaway wrote: post #57
srdev wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any sources that the Nexus is actually built in Korea without Foxconn involvement? Samsung is a Foxconn customer.

Now that you mention it, none that I'd rely on. My initial claim was made based on a cursory glance at the results page for "where is the galaxy nexus made?" Digging a little deeper, it seems some people have Nexii with "Made in China" on the back, whereas some say "Made in Korea". I suspect even the Korean phones are only assembled there.

[deleted]

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#63

Post by Natsu »

zasz wrote: post #31
maratd wrote: post #22

One of the hallmark properties of a market economy is that you have choice. You don't like your compensation? You quit. The truth is that everyone at the factory is there because they want to be. Because it beats being back on the farm. But still, Foxconn created the problem. When Western media freaked out over the suicides, Foxconn got scared. They started making their employees sign non-suicide agreements. What? Th…

Okay, let me see if I got this straight. Foxconn workers are picking between two shitty jobs. Job A is worse than Job B. Job A is so bad that they are threatening to commit suicide. What kind of choice is this?

The same kind people have in the USA, sadly. I know the guys on our production floor and I'll be blunt: factory work sucks.

If they want it to be better, they need labor laws. The people working that kind of job have little leverage. For example, if people are working 20 hour shifts in ~120 degree heat, it just sucks to be them. But once someone turns that into an on-the-record safety issue? Things get fixed. Maybe China should copy that...

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#64

Post by nik_0_0 »

philwelch wrote: post #47
redthrowaway wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or you could buy a Galaxy Nexus, made in Korea. I agree, those workers are probably better off working at Foxconn than if they stayed in rural areas and survived by subsistence farming, but it's still a moral grey area. It's akin to saying that slaves lived longer and in better conditions picking cotton in Alabama than growing beans in Africa. It might be true, but it doesn't make it good.

A few decades ago, buying anything made in Korea or Japan was fraught with the same moral dilemma. Until we bought so much stuff from Korea and Japan that Korea and Japan turned into rich countries. You could buy stuff that was made in America, but crack open a history book sometime--this was how America became a rich country, too.

I'm the first to admit I'm quite ignorant of my own history, let alone the economic history of Korea and Japan, but surely you aren't suggesting that if we keep buying stuff from China they will turn into a rich country and magically increase the working conditions?

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#65

Post by philwelch »

pm90 wrote: post #59
philwelch wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few decades ago, buying anything made in Korea or Japan was fraught with the same moral dilemma. Until we bought so much stuff from Korea and Japan that Korea and Japan turned into rich countries. You could buy stuff that was made in America, but crack open a history book sometime--this was how America became a rich country, too.

Nice observation, but are you sure that the analogy is equally applicable? China has a much bigger population than either Korea or Japan...

Foreign demand only speeds up the process; it's not a necessary component. The Western world went from no industrialization at all to sweatshops and tenements to riches within 150-200 years or so with no rich foreign countries buying their exports. (I'm thinking 1750/1800 to 1950.) That's only three times as long as it took Korea and Japan. China could make the same transformation based entirely on domestic demand the way the Western countries did, but instead, China gets the demand from the Western countries, plus Korea and Japan to speed up the process, plus all the cool technology we've developed to make it go faster. And the relevant population figures aren't China vs. the importing countries, because a lot of Chinese are already rich.

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#66

Post by louislouis »

InclinedPlane wrote: post #58
louislouis wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not just talking about China. It really doesn't matter which country the factories are in. The poor will always get exploited. Be it child labour in India or Indonesia, or closing of GM Flint Michigan. Exploitation of the poor is at the root of capitalism if you think about it from a basic level. It's all about making profit, and for that you need cheap labour provided by the poor, globalization provides an abund…

Exactly! In the last half century the poor in South Korea and Taiwan were exploited so much that they turned those countries into first world nations.

I'll assume you're bringing up those 2 countries as a direct comparison to North Korea and China? Correct? China seems to be doing alright for now. As for NK? Well when the country was formed, it got the better half compared to South Korea, in that it had all valuable resources and manufacturing. Now you have to ask how did this country with its head start manage to fall behind to its southern counterpart? Had the playing field been level, ie no sanctions placed and NK was allowed to partake in international trade, the story today would be very different.

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#67

Post by philwelch »

nik_0_0 wrote: post #64
philwelch wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few decades ago, buying anything made in Korea or Japan was fraught with the same moral dilemma. Until we bought so much stuff from Korea and Japan that Korea and Japan turned into rich countries. You could buy stuff that was made in America, but crack open a history book sometime--this was how America became a rich country, too.

I'm the first to admit I'm quite ignorant of my own history, let alone the economic history of Korea and Japan, but surely you aren't suggesting that if we keep buying stuff from China they will turn into a rich country and magically increase the working conditions?

It's not really magical, but yeah, that's how it's always worked.

Yes, someone has to actually fix the working conditions, but it's not going to be you or me, it's going to be the Chinese workers themselves. American and British workers formed unions and engaged in often violent struggles to improve pay and working conditions; some enlightened industrialists like Henry Ford voluntarily and profitably improved pay and working conditions on their own as well. The same thing will eventually happen in China as soon as the country has enough wealth to bargain for. It'll probably happen easier because the Chinese can learn from our history.

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#68

Post by jhuni »

pjkundert wrote: post #43
louislouis wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's called the choice of capitalism for the poor. Basically get exploited or don't eat.

Let me get this straight: you are using one of the most ruthless [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_trade ] command economies in the world as an example of the ills of Capitalism?

China has been blatantly capitalist since the economic reforms of Deng Xiaoping, similar to the USSR after the 1965 economic reform.

Don't fool yourself - China is capitalist. It is capitalist regardless of what its leadership claims or the extent to which it uses state mechanisms or market mechanisms.

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#69

Post by king_jester »

maratd wrote: post #22

One of the hallmark properties of a market economy is that you have choice. You don't like your compensation? You quit. The truth is that everyone at the factory is there because they want to be. Because it beats being back on the farm. But still, Foxconn created the problem. When Western media freaked out over the suicides, Foxconn got scared. They started making their employees sign non-suicide agreements. What? Th…

> You don't need to be sympathetic with the workers either. They're just negotiating for higher pay in a unique way. Completely within their rights. Nobody is jumping. The ones who are going to jump won't advertise it or ask for anything beforehand.

This is bizarre to me. Shouldn't we be sympathetic to the workers? Some of us are really lucky to have been born in a country where the industrial revolution already took place and labor union struggles already succeeded in establishing the ability to take group action against your employers for better working conditions. So what if paying a fair wage or giving better conditions hurts Foxconn's bottom line?

Also, it is not true that those that threaten suicide do not intend to follow through. This story is an unusual situation since it is group action against an employer, but people threaten and commit suicide for a variety of reasons the world over and your statement erases those peoples experiences.

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