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Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

theatlanticwire.com

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Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#51

Post by nradov »

jfoutz wrote: post #12
marknutter wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not just ditch every piece of technology then?

It's a really tough call. Is it ok to keep using the phone i have? well, yeah. the damage is done. i'd think of that as something like a vintage fur. the animal won't get any more dead. the bigger question is, is working at foxconn better than starving on the farm? I don't know much about rural China. I have a hard time believing that people would be driven to suicide without the factory job. also, a lot of stuff i c…

Actually the rural suicide rate in China is supposedly pretty high. It's hard to come by exact numbers for something the government doesn't want to publicize.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6711415.stm

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#52

Post by wtallis »

jfoutz wrote: post #9

I think it's time for me to check out of the smartphone game. I really like them for travel, but this is crazy.

Open up any desktop computer and look around. I guarantee you'll find at least half a dozen parts made by Foxconn. This isn't just about smartphones, and it never has been. Foxconn has been all over the technology market for a long time.

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#53

Post by knieveltech »

Karunamon wrote: post #16
knieveltech wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ditch every piece of technology that's got a foundation in exploitation and human suffering? Challenge Accepted.

So you're going to basically have to resign from your job and probably stop using every piece of tech you currently do. I know this sounds overly snarky, but it's true. Those are the options. Either get out of tech on "principal", or realize that would be cutting off your nose to spite your face, and use these devices to help change the way of things.

You're really blithely willing to label avoiding manufactured products that where constructed on the back of what equates to slave labor as "cutting off your nose to spite your face"?

Simply put, until market pressures are brought to bear on companies like Apple to clean up their act on the manufacturing and sourcing side of the house nothing is going to change, regardless of what you do with your ipad.

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#54

Post by endtime »

louislouis wrote: post #36
zasz wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, let me see if I got this straight. Foxconn workers are picking between two shitty jobs. Job A is worse than Job B. Job A is so bad that they are threatening to commit suicide. What kind of choice is this?

It's called the choice of capitalism for the poor. Basically get exploited or don't eat.

Yes, I'm sure all those Chinese employees are pining for the days when "don't eat" was the only option.

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#55

Post by louislouis »

pjkundert wrote: post #43
louislouis wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's called the choice of capitalism for the poor. Basically get exploited or don't eat.

Let me get this straight: you are using one of the most ruthless [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_trade ] command economies in the world as an example of the ills of Capitalism?

I'm not just talking about China. It really doesn't matter which country the factories are in. The poor will always get exploited. Be it child labour in India or Indonesia, or closing of GM Flint Michigan.

Exploitation of the poor is at the root of capitalism if you think about it from a basic level. It's all about making profit, and for that you need cheap labour provided by the poor, globalization provides an abundance of poor people to be exploited. Don't like the working hours here? Hey we got queues of peasants lined up outside to replace you. Get back to work.

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#56

Post by ChuckMcM »

Lots of conflicting thoughts here.

It seems pretty clear that the workers think that their working conditions are unjust. Further, they apparently would be OK with those conditions if they got more money.

That suggests they don't consider them inhumane, (not justified regardless of pay) rather they are economically unjust.

The truth of whether or not they are economically unjust (in a market driven economy, which China isn't really) is that if they quit there will be no one else to fill those roles (economic scarcity created by a price imbalance). However if there are people who will fill those roles at the prices offered, then they will simply be out of a job.

It is always true in market controlled transactions that the buyer thinks they are paying too much for a good and the seller thinks they are paying too little. It's the fulcrum that creates the equilibrium point for the price of a good or service.

So in a dispassionate economic way one can say the employees are working to maximize their own economic value. If by periodically pulling stunts like this gets them more pay then they are doing their part to improve their economic station at the expense of the company. The company of course may try to use that to increase the price they charge to assemble such devices, and perhaps give some of that increase to their working staff.

Saying that their other option is to 'starve' seems improbable in a country that is based on the communist teachings of Mao and Marx. One might presume (but I don't know since I don't live there) that there are state jobs available. I could certainly understand it if those state jobs were less desirable. But what I do know is that nothing, and I really do mean nothing, is the same regarding working in China as it is in any western (non-communist / non-totalitarian) country. The best one can hope for looking in from the outside are shadows of those things that are creating them.

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#57

Post by redthrowaway »

srdev wrote: post #49
redthrowaway wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or you could buy a Galaxy Nexus, made in Korea. I agree, those workers are probably better off working at Foxconn than if they stayed in rural areas and survived by subsistence farming, but it's still a moral grey area. It's akin to saying that slaves lived longer and in better conditions picking cotton in Alabama than growing beans in Africa. It might be true, but it doesn't make it good.

Any sources that the Nexus is actually built in Korea without Foxconn involvement? Samsung is a Foxconn customer.

Now that you mention it, none that I'd rely on. My initial claim was made based on a cursory glance at the results page for "where is the galaxy nexus made?"

Digging a little deeper, it seems some people have Nexii with "Made in China" on the back, whereas some say "Made in Korea". I suspect even the Korean phones are only assembled there.

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#58

Post by InclinedPlane »

louislouis wrote: post #55
pjkundert wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me get this straight: you are using one of the most ruthless [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_trade ] command economies in the world as an example of the ills of Capitalism?

I'm not just talking about China. It really doesn't matter which country the factories are in. The poor will always get exploited. Be it child labour in India or Indonesia, or closing of GM Flint Michigan. Exploitation of the poor is at the root of capitalism if you think about it from a basic level. It's all about making profit, and for that you need cheap labour provided by the poor, globalization provides an abund…

Exactly! In the last half century the poor in South Korea and Taiwan were exploited so much that they turned those countries into first world nations.

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#59

Post by pm90 »

philwelch wrote: post #47
redthrowaway wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or you could buy a Galaxy Nexus, made in Korea. I agree, those workers are probably better off working at Foxconn than if they stayed in rural areas and survived by subsistence farming, but it's still a moral grey area. It's akin to saying that slaves lived longer and in better conditions picking cotton in Alabama than growing beans in Africa. It might be true, but it doesn't make it good.

A few decades ago, buying anything made in Korea or Japan was fraught with the same moral dilemma. Until we bought so much stuff from Korea and Japan that Korea and Japan turned into rich countries. You could buy stuff that was made in America, but crack open a history book sometime--this was how America became a rich country, too.

Nice observation, but are you sure that the analogy is equally applicable? China has a much bigger population than either Korea or Japan...

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#60

Post by seanc »

maratd wrote: post #22

One of the hallmark properties of a market economy is that you have choice. You don't like your compensation? You quit. The truth is that everyone at the factory is there because they want to be. Because it beats being back on the farm. But still, Foxconn created the problem. When Western media freaked out over the suicides, Foxconn got scared. They started making their employees sign non-suicide agreements. What? Th…

> You don't need to be sympathetic with the workers either. They're just negotiating for higher pay in a unique way. Completely within their rights. Nobody is jumping. The ones who are going to jump won't advertise it or ask for anything beforehand.

They're not asking for higher pay. They're asking for basic rule of law and enforcement of contracts. Foxconn promised them money and then didn't pay it. In Shenzen there is no practical way for the worker to force the company to pay. The workers are screwed.

Getting your employer to pay up shouldn't require negotiation of any kind, much less 'negotiation' of this extreme nature.

I'm halfway through the TAL piece and this sort of thing is all that most workers are asking for; "Pay my overtime." "Use less toxic chemicals on the assembly line." "Let me do different activities so I don't destroy my hands from doing the same motion all the time." "Let me join a union without putting me in jail."

I have sympathy for anyone who works in conditions where simple basic things like this aren't taken for granted.

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