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What not to write on your security clearance form (1988)

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Re: What not to write on your security clearance form (1988)

#141

Post by jrumbut »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #123
SkeuomorphicBee wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because you need proof, and proving that someone is a terrorist is a long expensive and not guarantied process, while the lying on a form thing is purposefully self evident.

But if you haven't proven they are a terrorist, how can you prove they are lying about being a terrorist? They might not be a terrorist, in which case they weren't lying.

I doubt that this is the logic but there are different standards of evidence. If the traveler faces a criminal charge they'll get an attorney and the government will need to prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt.

In a civil case, it's likely to be about the preponderance of evidence and in front of some non-court administrative body there may be no particular standard of evidence at all.

Re: What not to write on your security clearance form (1988)

#142

Post by b112 »

pokot0 wrote: post #139
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if you haven't proven they are a terrorist, how can you prove they are lying about being a terrorist? They might not be a terrorist, in which case they weren't lying.

Jaywalking is illegal. It doesn't have to be the same illegal thing they want you out for. They're just giving them more options.

The Freedom to Walk act, in California, just made it legal. (Not relevant to your point, just a side bit of interesting info).

edit:

Huh. These guys:

https://www.dlawgroup.com/california-freedom-to-walk-act-for...

claim it is still illegal, but cannot be ticketed for without certain conditions. I wonder why, or if, this weird condition exists.

(I see it is supposedly to prevent police harassment, but that doesn't explain the weird legal status)

Re: What not to write on your security clearance form (1988)

#143

Post by noisy_boy »

airesearcher wrote: post #90

I often answer the doctor office intake questionnaires with a glaring mistake just to see if anyone checks. Where it says “have you ever been pregnant?” I answer yes. I also mark that I am a male. No doctor’s office has ever mentioned this to me after I turn in the forms.

Alternative explanation is that they do check it and after reconciling the checkbox and gender inputs against your (presumably) obvious appearance, choose to attribute it to a mistake and ignore it.

Re: What not to write on your security clearance form (1988)

#145

Post by thechao »

turminal wrote: post #134
apricot wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am reminded of the (probably apocryphal) story about a logician asking for a visa to enter the US for a conference. When he got to the question "Do you plan to overthrow the United States Government by force or violence?" he hesitated and then answered "violence".

There's a true story about Kurt Gödel's citizenship application: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_Loophole#Backgr...

> Other writers have speculated that Gödel may have had other parts of the Constitution in mind as well, including the possibility that a partisan ratchet effect, via lifetime Supreme Court appointments and selective application of the law, could permanently stack the Supreme Court with Justices of one political persuasion.

This is mentioned in the article. It's a pretty standard way to overthrow democracies — it subverts the system, using the system.

Re: What not to write on your security clearance form (1988)

#146

Post by red-iron-pine »

pedrovhb wrote: post #91
grishka wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My only experience with serious US government forms was applying for a tourist visa. This form also has some bonkers checkboxes like "do you plan to commit any crimes in the US". Also the entry form they give you on your flight deserves a mention. This one has "did you handle livestock in the last X months" repeated like 3 times in different phrasing. Not as stupid as the first one, but... why? Why is that question t…

Ah, the "are you a terrorist" section of the U.S. visa application is hilarious. I was honestly laughing out loud at some of the questions, imagining a sincere terrorist having their plan foiled by their strict moral code which requires them to lay out in detail their plan to topple the government :)

It's mostly so that someone can't say "well you never asked!" -- okay fine we'll ask from now on.

Additionally it creates a condition of jeopardy, because now you've made an official statement, and if it's false you're now potentially chargeable for perjury or making false official statements. So if you're a super-slick spy type and they can't pin something on you conclusively, but are sure you're up to something (in the same way they could only get Al Capone for tax evasion), then at least it gives them a pretext to take action and charge or deport you.

Re: What not to write on your security clearance form (1988)

#147

Post by Asooka »

everly wrote: post #81

"Lady, this case has cost the government thousands of dollars. It has been the top priority in our office for the last six weeks. We traced the glasses to your son from the prescription by examining the files of nearly every optometrist in San Diego." It apparently didn't occur to them that if I were a real Japanese spy, I might have brought the glasses with me from headquarters. First of all, absolutely hilarious -…

Third of all, it's the government's own fault they lost their mind over a child's toy.

Re: What not to write on your security clearance form (1988)

#148

Post by ckastner »

FpUser wrote: post #66
ckastner wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Determining whether you're dealing with an actual spy or an innocent person is the entire point of such investigations.

The investigation was already concluded. Why should person suffer in the future when nothing wrong was done ?

The person wasn't really suffering though, this was just about getting a security clearance. Most people don't have one.

I don't think it's entirely unreasonable for a special vetting process to have stricter standards.

Re: What not to write on your security clearance form (1988)

#149

Post by NikolaNovak »

When I moved to Canada, at age 16-17 I initially failed a lot of job applications at places like Staples, Future Shop, Best Buy, Radio Shack, etc.

For some reason, many of them had a type of "Corporate Personality Test" on their application, and asked the same "Have you ever considered stealing from your employer?" to which I would cheerfully answer "Yes".

Apparently this was an automatic deal-breaker; there was no follow-up - no "HAVE you ever stolen" or "WOULD you ever steal from your employer", or "why were you considering it" or anything like that. My mind never stops and there's virtually nothing in the world I have not "considered" (as in, thought about, crossed my mind, evaluated, etc). Similarly, years later it actually took my Canadian therapist a little while to adjust as well when he asked if I ever considered suicide and I cheerfully replied "Yes!" (I'm not suicidal, in the least, by any of the normal metrics; but I genuinely don't understand people who have "never considered" it - how do you block & limit your mind? What mental fences do you have that you have never "considered" such an obvious course of action in the likely billion of seconds of thinking?).

I don't know what other people do with their brains; my wife falls asleep within 30 seconds of her head hitting the pillow, my mind insists on spending an hour or three "considering" things I apparently shouldn't put on a job application lol :-)

Re: What not to write on your security clearance form (1988)

#150

Post by Symmetry »

matwood wrote: post #93
technothrasher wrote: post #67

"Here, fill it out again and don't mention that." I had the exact same experience when applying for a clearance while I was in college, for the "have you taken illegal drugs" question. When I honestly answered yes, the interviewer got fidgety and then asked, "well do you take them now?" no. "Do you know any drug users?" We're on a college campus, what would you like me to say? "Well, are you friends with any of them?…

This is surprising because it's the exact wrong thing to do. Past drug use will not disqualify you from a clearance, but lying absolutely will. Depending on the clearance level they will interview a number of people, including second degree connections. I know someone who used to be an investigator, and it surprised me when they told me how often first degree connections would say bad things about their 'friend'.

That's been my impression with myself and several friends going through the process. The defense establishment is looking for honest people without drug abuse problems, not people who've never tried a joint. But I understand the opposite is true when applying for a job in law enforcement.
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