What not to write on your security clearance form (1988) • Hacker News Board

Re: What not to write on your security clearance form (1988)

#121

Post by Spooky23 » Thu, Jan 19, 2023, 1:21 PM UTC

jstanley wrote: post #105

deutschepost wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I heard a pretty good interpretation of why these questions exist. If you say that you don't plan to commit crimes and then commit one, you have essentially lied on the form. In some cases at least it is way easier for the state to deport someone if they lie on their immigration form. But if the question wasn't there you would have to go through the whole legal process. On the other hand, if you answer yes to this qu…

But you might legitimately not be planning to commit any crimes, but then change your mind once you get there. The fact that you committed a crime after saying you weren't planning to do so does not mean that you were lying.

Cool. Hopefully you have $150k to hire the attorneys to argue that, and deal with the trainload of stuff that will come your way when they do.

Re: What not to write on your security clearance form (1988)

#122

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jan 19, 2023, 1:21 PM UTC

matwood wrote: post #93

technothrasher wrote: post #67

"Here, fill it out again and don't mention that." I had the exact same experience when applying for a clearance while I was in college, for the "have you taken illegal drugs" question. When I honestly answered yes, the interviewer got fidgety and then asked, "well do you take them now?" no. "Do you know any drug users?" We're on a college campus, what would you like me to say? "Well, are you friends with any of them?…

This is surprising because it's the exact wrong thing to do. Past drug use will not disqualify you from a clearance, but lying absolutely will. Depending on the clearance level they will interview a number of people, including second degree connections. I know someone who used to be an investigator, and it surprised me when they told me how often first degree connections would say bad things about their 'friend'.

[deleted]

Re: What not to write on your security clearance form (1988)

#123

Post by Wowfunhappy » Thu, Jan 19, 2023, 1:21 PM UTC

SkeuomorphicBee wrote: post #117

LudwigNagasena wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would it be easier to deport someone for lying on a form rather than for being a terrorist?

Because you need proof, and proving that someone is a terrorist is a long expensive and not guarantied process, while the lying on a form thing is purposefully self evident.

But if you haven't proven they are a terrorist, how can you prove they are lying about being a terrorist?

They might not be a terrorist, in which case they weren't lying.

Re: What not to write on your security clearance form (1988)

#124

Post by Spooky23 » Thu, Jan 19, 2023, 1:22 PM UTC

LudwigNagasena wrote: post #109

deutschepost wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I heard a pretty good interpretation of why these questions exist. If you say that you don't plan to commit crimes and then commit one, you have essentially lied on the form. In some cases at least it is way easier for the state to deport someone if they lie on their immigration form. But if the question wasn't there you would have to go through the whole legal process. On the other hand, if you answer yes to this qu…

Why would it be easier to deport someone for lying on a form rather than for being a terrorist?

It’s cheaper to demonstrate a lie than to have people testify, etc.

Re: What not to write on your security clearance form (1988)

#125

Post by DocTomoe » Thu, Jan 19, 2023, 1:23 PM UTC

AdamN wrote: post #12

DocTomoe wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, we do have "Nafri" (North AFRIcans), "Ausländer" (foreigners, but only used for "problematic" foreigners somehow), "Migrationshintergrund" (migration background, meaning everyone who is an immigrant, and anyone related to them for two generations, regardless of nationality), "Südländer" (initially people from the south, such as Italians, Greeks, Jugoslavians, but nowadays "people coming from the middle east"),…

I'm a White American living in Berlin, what word would the Berlin police put in my file??

Well, if you get in contact with the police for any reason, you obviously are a problematic person, so "Ausländer".

Re: What not to write on your security clearance form (1988)

#126

Post by bell-cot » Thu, Jan 19, 2023, 1:24 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #44

bell-cot wrote: post #10

Sadly, the moral of the story seems to be that the 1943 FBI had loads of zealous (performative?) plods on staff, but ~zero law enforcement professionals. In '43, the US had plenty of highly competent professional cryptographers, who were quite experienced with current Japanese, German, Italian, British, etc. codes. Before an entire local FBI office spent even a day on this case (let alone 6 weeks), maybe they should…

That was Hoover's FBI, the peak of hunting for anyone suspected of being a communist, gay, dissident, or anti-segregationist.

Also - "Working for the Evil Overlord" is no excuse for gross incompetence. By late 1943, there seem to have been at least 4 independent communist spies inside the uber-secret Manhattan Project. Most of them with communist connections which competent zealous plods, perhaps eager to be heroes, could have uncovered.

Re: What not to write on your security clearance form (1988)

#127

Post by zabzonk » Thu, Jan 19, 2023, 1:24 PM UTC

i was once sitting in coach class (never again) flying from heathrow to chicago when they handed out the visa waiver forms. for those of you that don't know, this enables people from the uk to enter the us on business or holiday, without a visa, and asks all sorts of incredibly inane questions, such as "have you ever attempted to overthrow the government of the usa by violence?", with yes/no checkboxes. the correct answer to all of them is "no".

glancing over at the idiot boy sitting next to me, who had been somewhat annoying me during the flight, i noticed that he had checked "yes" to all of them. i had a moments pleasure thinking what would happen to him once he got to immigration, but being basically a nice person, i suggested he got a new form from the cabin crew.

Re: What not to write on your security clearance form (1988)

#128

Post by kayodelycaon » Thu, Jan 19, 2023, 1:24 PM UTC

ckastner wrote: post #62

gnfargbl wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is true that the FBI found the person they were looking for, and that person was the terminus of their investigation. It is not true that the article author was investigated by the FBI . He was nothing more than a MacGuffin in the overall plot. In this specific case, the security officer made the correct decision in having him leave out this detail from the clearance form. Makes for a good story, though.

> It is true that the FBI found the person they were looking for, and that person was the terminus of their investigation. It is not true that the article author was investigated by the FBI; he wasn't To me, these are the same, so I guess that's probably just my layman's view then.

They aren’t the same. There is a legal distinction. They were attempting to identify the source of a document.

After they found and identified who created it, the investigation was dropped before they investigated any particular person.

Re: What not to write on your security clearance form (1988)

#129

Post by apricot » Thu, Jan 19, 2023, 1:26 PM UTC

jemfinch wrote: post #38

ckastner wrote: post #18

It's a great story, but didn't the author confess to a felony by publishing it? He lied on an official document, even if directed to do so by the person across him. I know this is pedantic, but that's exactly what I would expect from a security clearance vetting process.

He wasn't investigated by the FBI. The FBI was investigating a hypothetical Japanese spy; since he wasn't a Japanese spy, any follow-up that led to him was merely incidental. If the FBI investigates a spy seen driving a silver Honda Civic with license plate ABC-1234, and looks into an unrelated civilian who drives a silver Honda Civic with license plate ADC-1234 in case their witness misremembered the license place,…

I don't buy it. The FBI found his code sheet that he made, and tracked him down, and asked people about him. This is an investigation, and it's about him. The fact that they thought he was a Japanese spy simply means that they made the wrong assumption about the person they were investigating.

Re: What not to write on your security clearance form (1988)

#130

Post by DocTomoe » Thu, Jan 19, 2023, 1:26 PM UTC

fransje26 wrote: post #22

AdamN wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a White American living in Berlin, what word would the Berlin police put in my file??

Sozialflüchtling

... which translates to "refugee for healthcare/unemployment benefits/social benefits reasons", implying that they never paid a dime in, but happily take out of the pot nontheless.

fransje26 meant this as a joke, but the term has been used unironically to refer to East-Europeans (and the situation in the States regarding the non-existance of a functional social safety net would render them relatively similar in this case).