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Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

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Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#71

Post by tuatoru »

ecshafer wrote: post #51
dumbfounder wrote: post #30

Can batteries be created to make the process of reclaiming the lithium orders of magnitude easier? A completely different topic: Politics tends to focus on forcing consumer vehicles to go electric, is this really the right move? Most cars are not driven a lot in a day. But cars that are used for work (fleet, uber/deliveries) are used much more, so the benefit to them being electric is far greater. Trucks too most lik…

The reality is that electric vehicles are a fools errand. The real winning strategy is one that overall reduces dependency on vehicles, and moves more to walking, biking, and mass transit. This would mean actually making hard decisions and having policy changes though. You lower the CO2 produced by orders of magnitude compared to even electric vehicles.

That would be a great place to live, and several decades from now, it may exist.

Several decades from now is too long to wait for an energy transition.

Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#72

Post by SigmundA »

Manuel_D wrote: post #20
rootusrootus wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is an interview with Siddharth Kara that suggests all lithium batteries contain cobalt and thusly depend on child slave labor That is demonstrably not true. AFAIK the majority of EVs use LFP batteries that have no cobalt. The current RWD Model 3 in the US also uses LFP. That's the direction most EVs will probably head over the next few years.

Lithium iron phosphate are not widely used in EVs. They gave poorer energy density, so lithium ion is preferred. I think electric golf carts use LiFePo batteries, to keep costs low and because range is less of an issue.

The energy density is partially offset by the higher cycle life of LFP even while charging to 100% SOC.

For instance Tesla recommends an 80% charge for daily unless you know you are going to go a long trip, while on their LFP version they recommend a 100% daily charge to keep cell balance as the LFP pack will have a much longer life than a NCM pack at 80%.

https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/model3/en_jo/GUID-7FE78D7...

LFP are ideal for shorter range commuter/daily driver cars and LFP tech seems to be closing the gap with cobalt energy density.

Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#73

Post by slow_typist »

bombcar wrote: post #39
YPCrumble wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it hard to believe that pulling electricity from the grid would increase carbon emissions vs. a vehicle burning gas in its own engine. How is that possible?

And even if it were (I suppose a very clean natural gas car vs the worst coal plant ever made) the electric still has the advantage of regenerating braking.

Driving overland will not recover much breaking energy. That is only an advantage of EVs under town traffic conditions, where cheap efficient public transportation is the better solution.

Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#74

Post by fragmede »

matsemann wrote: post #36
dumbfounder wrote: post #30

Can batteries be created to make the process of reclaiming the lithium orders of magnitude easier? A completely different topic: Politics tends to focus on forcing consumer vehicles to go electric, is this really the right move? Most cars are not driven a lot in a day. But cars that are used for work (fleet, uber/deliveries) are used much more, so the benefit to them being electric is far greater. Trucks too most lik…

Most people shouldn't need to own a car. I don't mean that in a "self driving will save us" way. But that a personal car is parked 95% of the day. In a city huge areas are used for storing these blocks of metal not in use. More accessible car sharing could make less people feel the need to own a car.

More useful bus and train, and other mass-transit options, along with densification would go a long way towards that too. Unfortunately though, there's no getting around the fact that driving is convenient as shit. It's a luxury that most Americans have become accustomed to and won't want to give up.

I live in a city but the pandemic meant that I was able to park my car for short grocery trips where previously I would have taken a bus.

Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#75

Post by Closi »

trabant00 wrote: post #29
bertil wrote: post #10

This article and the IEA sources that they rely on assumes that an EV is a car. That’s not a good assumption: electric bicycles and trikes like the Aptera are much better direction for the vast majority of individual transport. At that size, you can rely on smaller batteries and solar panels for many journeys (it isn’t fully sufficient for an Aptera but an e-bicycle with a small roof can ride as long as the Sun shine…

> Using three tons vehicles for long-distance journeys or for the transport of goods isn’t efficient: trains (and last-mile delivery on cargo bikes) are a lot more economical That sounds intuitive to me but the fact that train tickets are so expensive on long distances (more than twice than if you travel alone in a car) makes me think it's not the case.

> Using three tons vehicles for long-distance journeys or for the transport of goods isn’t efficient: trains (and last-mile delivery on cargo bikes) are a lot more economical

You are right - Rail freight is extremely expensive (typically more expensive than road except for very long routes) and cargo bikes have a tiny payload.

Think about container ships - massive vehicle and much lower cost vs rail freight (dependent on distance).

Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#76

Post by pfdietz »

mansoor_ wrote: post #12

AFAIK the mineral reserve bottlenecks are cobalt and manganese, not lithium!

Manganese is not a problem from resource availability. World reserves are 1.5 billion tonnes, and up to a trillion tonnes of manganese are available from seafloor nodules.

Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#77

Post by TeeMassive »

bertil wrote: post #10

This article and the IEA sources that they rely on assumes that an EV is a car. That’s not a good assumption: electric bicycles and trikes like the Aptera are much better direction for the vast majority of individual transport. At that size, you can rely on smaller batteries and solar panels for many journeys (it isn’t fully sufficient for an Aptera but an e-bicycle with a small roof can ride as long as the Sun shine…

As I like to point out in most of these threads, not everyone live in a Californian-like climate.

Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#78

Post by rootusrootus »

munchler wrote: post #70
bertil wrote: post #10

This article and the IEA sources that they rely on assumes that an EV is a car. That’s not a good assumption: electric bicycles and trikes like the Aptera are much better direction for the vast majority of individual transport. At that size, you can rely on smaller batteries and solar panels for many journeys (it isn’t fully sufficient for an Aptera but an e-bicycle with a small roof can ride as long as the Sun shine…

Good luck selling that idea (in America, at least).

There isn't any reason people in America couldn't choose such things. They just don't. If the selling of the idea is failing, maybe the idea is the problem and not the people you're selling it to.

Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#79

Post by dabeeeenster »

TeeMassive wrote: post #77
bertil wrote: post #10

This article and the IEA sources that they rely on assumes that an EV is a car. That’s not a good assumption: electric bicycles and trikes like the Aptera are much better direction for the vast majority of individual transport. At that size, you can rely on smaller batteries and solar panels for many journeys (it isn’t fully sufficient for an Aptera but an e-bicycle with a small roof can ride as long as the Sun shine…

As I like to point out in most of these threads, not everyone live in a Californian-like climate.

Wait until you discover the dutch.

Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#80

Post by tyho »

qudat wrote: post #57
trabant00 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Using three tons vehicles for long-distance journeys or for the transport of goods isn’t efficient: trains (and last-mile delivery on cargo bikes) are a lot more economical That sounds intuitive to me but the fact that train tickets are so expensive on long distances (more than twice than if you travel alone in a car) makes me think it's not the case.

> That sounds intuitive to me but the fact that train tickets are so expensive on long distances (more than twice than if you travel alone in a car) makes me think it's not the case. Have you factored in all the costs associated with owning a vehicle (e.g. cost of purchase, maintenance, etc)?

Yep, train travel in the UK is more expensive than driving under any circumstances by at least a factor of two or three other than when commuting into London, where parking charges make the economics work.
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