Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

hannahritchie.substack.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

11–20 of 413 posts

Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#11

Post by bryanlarsen »

LinuxBender wrote: post #2

Is Lithium the only barrier to EV's? Are there any global supply chain logistical issues that may arise should ongoing conflicts escalate? Do the same supply chain issues affect ICE and EV's equally? I honestly do not know but I see this get brought up when people discuss EV's more so than Lithium. Could the existing coal mining companies transition or relocate to locations rich in Lithium, possibly offering their em…

Lithium is the only major mineral in an EV that does not have a significant use elsewhere. Steel, aluminum, manganese, nickel, iron, phosphate, cobalt, rare earths, et cetera have significant industrial uses outside of EV's. So while EV's can put a lot of pressure on those supply chains, the effect is on a different scale.

Traditionally Lithium isn't mined, it's concentrated out of a brine. Some miners are setting up hard-rock Lithium mines, but those are on a vastly different scale than a coal mine, so there would likely be very little equipment overlap.

A significant number of batteries still use cobalt, although the percentage of batteries that are cobalt-free is increasing.

Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#13

Post by rootusrootus »

LatteLazy wrote: post #9

One of the core problems with environmentalists, intelligent people and anyone left wing really is that we insist on doing nothing until we have a perfect solution. Instead of trading climate change for a lithium shortage, we will fail to push these cars because there might be some imperfection for someone somewhere someday. And a massive serious issue is better than a tiny possible future issue we didn't foresee . H…

I don't think most of the folks suddenly apprehensive about lithium & cobalt mining are left wing.

Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#14

Post by dwheeler »

Even if we have more electric vehicles, that doesn't decarbonize anything unless the source of the energy doesn't generate carbon dioxide. In many places you're just moving the source of carbon dioxide (often with a total increase). I think that part is often overlooked.

Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#15

Post by Manuel_D »

jacknews wrote: post #5

"It’s easy to imagine that decades from now, the chemistry of batteries will have changed so much that they will use two, three, or four times less than today." It's easy to imagine, but is it even possible? My understanding is that the lithium is the charge carrier, and while there is some room to improve efficiency, less lithium means less capacity. OTOH, it's quite possible that, eg, sodium batteries become viable…

This is correct. It's like saying do "in the future we'll have gasoline that contains 2, 3, or 4 times as much energy." Sure, different gasoline chemistries have different energy densities. But there's thermodynamic limits to it, unless you're switching to an entirely different chemistry.

IIRC, we're already at ~40% the thermodynamic limits of lithium, so tripling or quadrupling are out of the question.

Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#16

Post by bryanlarsen »

rootusrootus wrote: post #7
LinuxBender wrote: post #2

Is Lithium the only barrier to EV's? Are there any global supply chain logistical issues that may arise should ongoing conflicts escalate? Do the same supply chain issues affect ICE and EV's equally? I honestly do not know but I see this get brought up when people discuss EV's more so than Lithium. Could the existing coal mining companies transition or relocate to locations rich in Lithium, possibly offering their em…

> There is an interview with Siddharth Kara that suggests all lithium batteries contain cobalt and thusly depend on child slave labor That is demonstrably not true. AFAIK the majority of EVs use LFP batteries that have no cobalt. The current RWD Model 3 in the US also uses LFP. That's the direction most EVs will probably head over the next few years.

It's not just LFP batteries that don't use cobalt. Tesla's medium density batteries use a "high nickel" cathode rather than a nickel-manganese-cobalt cathode.

Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#18

Post by LatteLazy »

rootusrootus wrote: post #13
LatteLazy wrote: post #9

One of the core problems with environmentalists, intelligent people and anyone left wing really is that we insist on doing nothing until we have a perfect solution. Instead of trading climate change for a lithium shortage, we will fail to push these cars because there might be some imperfection for someone somewhere someday. And a massive serious issue is better than a tiny possible future issue we didn't foresee . H…

I don't think most of the folks suddenly apprehensive about lithium & cobalt mining are left wing.

I don't think anyone on the right wing cares at all either way. So even if it's only a small part of the left wing, it's composed on 100% left wingers...

Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#19

Post by YPCrumble »

dwheeler wrote: post #14

Even if we have more electric vehicles, that doesn't decarbonize anything unless the source of the energy doesn't generate carbon dioxide. In many places you're just moving the source of carbon dioxide (often with a total increase). I think that part is often overlooked.

I find it hard to believe that pulling electricity from the grid would increase carbon emissions vs. a vehicle burning gas in its own engine. How is that possible?

Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#20

Post by Manuel_D »

rootusrootus wrote: post #7
LinuxBender wrote: post #2

Is Lithium the only barrier to EV's? Are there any global supply chain logistical issues that may arise should ongoing conflicts escalate? Do the same supply chain issues affect ICE and EV's equally? I honestly do not know but I see this get brought up when people discuss EV's more so than Lithium. Could the existing coal mining companies transition or relocate to locations rich in Lithium, possibly offering their em…

> There is an interview with Siddharth Kara that suggests all lithium batteries contain cobalt and thusly depend on child slave labor That is demonstrably not true. AFAIK the majority of EVs use LFP batteries that have no cobalt. The current RWD Model 3 in the US also uses LFP. That's the direction most EVs will probably head over the next few years.

Lithium iron phosphate are not widely used in EVs. They gave poorer energy density, so lithium ion is preferred. I think electric golf carts use LiFePo batteries, to keep costs low and because range is less of an issue.
Post reply on HN