A ticking time bomb: healthcare under threat across western Europe • Hacker News Board

Re: A ticking time bomb: healthcare under threat across western Europe

#31

Post by negamax » Sat, Dec 17, 2022, 12:56 PM UTC

virtual_void wrote: post #17

Services, such as healthcare, public infrastructure, public transport, energy etc should be run by the state. There is always a conflict of interest when companies run these things because they care about profit / shareholder return more than they care about the people. Now, the fact that the state is often corrupt is another problem that should also be fixed but i just don’t buy the argument that companies should ru…

Ireland is another example. Healthcare services have €20B a year budget for 5M population. It's rife with non performance, wrong diagnosis and being borderline ineffective.

Element of running a welfare state is how far you take it or make it restrictive so capitalism can thrive. Many doctors run private practice together with their lucrative government jobs. UK on similar level seems lost between running state run programs vs letting private sector thrive.

Private sector is certainly not an answer to education and health. But government ones need some private sector like spirit, incentives and sticks. Many of the medical staff don't perform because these are jobs for life with little to no long term effects on their career.

Re: A ticking time bomb: healthcare under threat across western Europe

#32

Post by jhoechtl » Sat, Dec 17, 2022, 12:58 PM UTC

ManuelKiessling wrote: post #11

mathverse wrote: post #8

And this is with then sucking eastern europe dry off almost all capable medical personnel. Lets face it Western European healthcare is a scam. They are barely existing with millions of qualified people from CEE and now they are eyeing countries like Philippines, Indonesia and such. It is all a ponzi

I don’t have any specific information on the current situation, and regarding future developments, well my crystal ball is currently in service — but regarding the situation up until at least recently, I will go on record any time: I have lived the past 44 years in the context of the German health care system, and it was basically perfect, period. Compared to the US (hearsay), and the Eastern European systems (first…

Cant speak for Germany but the situation in Austria has been more or less the same. Perfect.

But I think we are increasingly slipping into a two class medcare system.

Re: A ticking time bomb: healthcare under threat across western Europe

#33

Post by brainchild-adam » Sat, Dec 17, 2022, 12:58 PM UTC

I, for the life of me, cannot understand how something as essential as healthcare does not take priority over comparatively less essential things.

It must be an unintended result of our complex societal setup with each stakeholder pursuing their own limited gain with no regard for the bigger picture, because it just makes no sense.

Same is true for other essentials such as firefighting, basic infrastructure, etc.

Why would I rather have 5G/Fibre/stadiums/TV shows/[any other less essential contrasting example] than proper healthcare?

If I cannot pay for both, let's have the more important one.

I know I'm oversimplifying. I believe my core point still stands.

Re: A ticking time bomb: healthcare under threat across western Europe

#34

Post by notpushkin » Sat, Dec 17, 2022, 12:58 PM UTC

wolongong942 wrote: post #16

ghostDancer wrote: post #3

It's an organized dismantle coming from the right wing parties, they cut resources and spending creating waiting lists and the deviate people to private services. The promotion of private healthcare it's all over, super cheap prices for now, till the destroy the system and then I guess we will get a super expensive scamming healthcare like in the USA. In Spain several hospitals that turned private were returning to b…

Right wing parties haven't had much say in western Europe as of recent, unless you've re-defined right wing. We're having the same issues here in NZ and it accelerated with a left wing govt.

I've seen those terms redefined so many times that now I think right-wing and left-wing don't mean anything really, outside the context of US politics.

Re: A ticking time bomb: healthcare under threat across western Europe

#35

Post by negamax » Sat, Dec 17, 2022, 1:00 PM UTC

brainchild-adam wrote: post #33

I, for the life of me, cannot understand how something as essential as healthcare does not take priority over comparatively less essential things. It must be an unintended result of our complex societal setup with each stakeholder pursuing their own limited gain with no regard for the bigger picture, because it just makes no sense. Same is true for other essentials such as firefighting, basic infrastructure, etc. Why…

Healthcare is expensive and have massive fines built in for good reasons. Government jobs are for life with little to no repercussions. Also they might not align people correctly with incentives. We need government run programs with private sector like efficiency.

Re: A ticking time bomb: healthcare under threat across western Europe

#36

Post by nopenopenopeno » Sat, Dec 17, 2022, 1:01 PM UTC

ProjectArcturis wrote: post #30

nopenopenopeno wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NZ has never had a left wing government. NZ's government is neoliberal, which is not left wing in any way. Neoliberalism is in all actuality right wing.

If you're calling Jacinda Ahern a right-winger, the term has lost all meaning. Do you need the state to seize the means of production in order to call a government left-wing?

At least a few explicit examples would be a good place to start. I look forward to it.

Re: A ticking time bomb: healthcare under threat across western Europe

#37

Post by throw_pm23 » Sat, Dec 17, 2022, 1:01 PM UTC

ManuelKiessling wrote: post #11

mathverse wrote: post #8

And this is with then sucking eastern europe dry off almost all capable medical personnel. Lets face it Western European healthcare is a scam. They are barely existing with millions of qualified people from CEE and now they are eyeing countries like Philippines, Indonesia and such. It is all a ponzi

I don’t have any specific information on the current situation, and regarding future developments, well my crystal ball is currently in service — but regarding the situation up until at least recently, I will go on record any time: I have lived the past 44 years in the context of the German health care system, and it was basically perfect, period. Compared to the US (hearsay), and the Eastern European systems (first…

The comment you responded to was not saying that Eastern European systems are better than Western European ones, but that Western European ones are better because they benefit from getting personnel educated in Eastern Europe and elsewhere for free.

Re: A ticking time bomb: healthcare under threat across western Europe

#38

Post by chongli » Sat, Dec 17, 2022, 1:02 PM UTC

ethanbond wrote: post #28

throw6383878 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

State has conflict of interest as well. It is entity that is trying to save and extract money, just like big corporation. Lets not pretend it is somehow more moral!

But in democratic states the people also hold the reins on the other end via elections. You don’t get to vote for CEOs or their boards or their boards largest shareholders for $0. So yeah they’re characteristically different.

The problem with state-run healthcare (as well as education) is that costs (especially salaries) can become a political issue. In parts of Canada we’re experiencing severe shortages of healthcare workers (such as nurses) because governments have frozen their pay for political reasons.

Re: A ticking time bomb: healthcare under threat across western Europe

#39

Post by philliphaydon » Sat, Dec 17, 2022, 1:02 PM UTC

notpushkin wrote: post #34

wolongong942 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right wing parties haven't had much say in western Europe as of recent, unless you've re-defined right wing. We're having the same issues here in NZ and it accelerated with a left wing govt.

I've seen those terms redefined so many times that now I think right-wing and left-wing don't mean anything really, outside the context of US politics.

I feel like left wing/right wing is basically now defined as “if you don’t believe in what I believe in then you’re right wing and wrong”

Re: A ticking time bomb: healthcare under threat across western Europe

#40

Post by naasking » Sat, Dec 17, 2022, 1:03 PM UTC

virtual_void wrote: post #17

Services, such as healthcare, public infrastructure, public transport, energy etc should be run by the state. There is always a conflict of interest when companies run these things because they care about profit / shareholder return more than they care about the people. Now, the fact that the state is often corrupt is another problem that should also be fixed but i just don’t buy the argument that companies should ru…

> when companies run these things because they care about profit / shareholder return more than they care about the people.

We can accept that without also accepting that governments care about the people either. The top-level care about re-election, and the managers that survive party transitions care about their budgets, their fiefdoms, and maybe sometimes their employees rather than the public write large.

Corporations are kept in line with proper competition, where possible. What feedback mechanism is their to keep government bureaucracy in line? Sometimes they have audits, but those are never detailed or frequent enough.