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A ticking time bomb: healthcare under threat across western Europe

theguardian.com

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Re: A ticking time bomb: healthcare under threat across western Europe

#21

Post by tuatoru »

VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #13
wolongong942 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same thing is happening to NZ healthcare, i personally welcome means testing for elective surgeries. A lot of boomers needing healthcare here are sitting on significant gains from holding property, a boomer was recently complaining to me about his hip op being delayed twice through public, he owns a big $1m house, $2m in rentals and has $500k in a savings account, he could easily get it done this week with his ow…

You're saying that if you're in a high enough tax bracket then you should pay the most to support everyone else's healthcare but have no right to access it yourself.

No, gp is saying that if you have choices, you should be deprioritised in the queue for limited public resources.

Edit: I took out a loan to have cataract surgery. I don't understand why someone would sit idle and crippled if they have the means to do something about it. You don't win by dying with all the money.

Re: A ticking time bomb: healthcare under threat across western Europe

#22

Post by nopenopenopeno »

wolongong942 wrote: post #16
ghostDancer wrote: post #3

It's an organized dismantle coming from the right wing parties, they cut resources and spending creating waiting lists and the deviate people to private services. The promotion of private healthcare it's all over, super cheap prices for now, till the destroy the system and then I guess we will get a super expensive scamming healthcare like in the USA. In Spain several hospitals that turned private were returning to b…

Right wing parties haven't had much say in western Europe as of recent, unless you've re-defined right wing. We're having the same issues here in NZ and it accelerated with a left wing govt.

NZ has never had a left wing government. NZ's government is neoliberal, which is not left wing in any way. Neoliberalism is in all actuality right wing.

Re: A ticking time bomb: healthcare under threat across western Europe

#23

Post by virtual_void »

VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #13
wolongong942 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same thing is happening to NZ healthcare, i personally welcome means testing for elective surgeries. A lot of boomers needing healthcare here are sitting on significant gains from holding property, a boomer was recently complaining to me about his hip op being delayed twice through public, he owns a big $1m house, $2m in rentals and has $500k in a savings account, he could easily get it done this week with his ow…

You're saying that if you're in a high enough tax bracket then you should pay the most to support everyone else's healthcare but have no right to access it yourself.

He’s clearly not saying that though. The statement was that a wealthy person was complaining about having to wait. Everyone else is also having to wait. They could speed things up by paying privately if they so wish.

Also the wealthy should have a larger tax burden in absolute terms compared to the less well off. I say this as someone how is very fortunate - I don’t think we are taxed enough to make things sane and fair.

Re: A ticking time bomb: healthcare under threat across western Europe

#24

Post by VWWHFSfQ »

vjulian wrote: post #4
nathias wrote: post #2

It is slowly decaying here, in a central european country with socialized healthcare. It isn't because of COVID or aging or anything like that, but rather because of a systemic 'privatization' where taxes collected via mandatory private insurance companies are used to fund an alternative privatized healthcare system that then offers higher pay to healthcare workers.

Does it boil down to physicians and other care staff not being paid enough?

I think it's similar, but obviously not nearly as extreme, as doctors in Cuba being paid nothing and constantly trying to flee to the USA while there is a perception that Cuba has a good healthcare system. The practice and care itself may be good but if you can't take care of the workers then it will still fall apart. Cuban doctors are actually slaves though. European doctors just leave the public services.

Re: A ticking time bomb: healthcare under threat across western Europe

#25

Post by nopenopenopeno »

virtual_void wrote: post #17

Services, such as healthcare, public infrastructure, public transport, energy etc should be run by the state. There is always a conflict of interest when companies run these things because they care about profit / shareholder return more than they care about the people. Now, the fact that the state is often corrupt is another problem that should also be fixed but i just don’t buy the argument that companies should ru…

False binary. Under capitalism, the state is always beholden to the interests of capital, i.e. "private" capital.

Re: A ticking time bomb: healthcare under threat across western Europe

#26

Post by VWWHFSfQ »

virtual_void wrote: post #23
VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're saying that if you're in a high enough tax bracket then you should pay the most to support everyone else's healthcare but have no right to access it yourself.

He’s clearly not saying that though. The statement was that a wealthy person was complaining about having to wait. Everyone else is also having to wait. They could speed things up by paying privately if they so wish. Also the wealthy should have a larger tax burden in absolute terms compared to the less well off. I say this as someone how is very fortunate - I don’t think we are taxed enough to make things sane and f…

> means testing for elective surgeries

this means they shouldn't be allowed to access the healthcare that they're paying for.

Re: A ticking time bomb: healthcare under threat across western Europe

#27

Post by throw6383878 »

virtual_void wrote: post #17

Services, such as healthcare, public infrastructure, public transport, energy etc should be run by the state. There is always a conflict of interest when companies run these things because they care about profit / shareholder return more than they care about the people. Now, the fact that the state is often corrupt is another problem that should also be fixed but i just don’t buy the argument that companies should ru…

State has conflict of interest as well. It is entity that is trying to save and extract money, just like big corporation. Lets not pretend it is somehow more moral!

Re: A ticking time bomb: healthcare under threat across western Europe

#28

Post by ethanbond »

throw6383878 wrote: post #27
virtual_void wrote: post #17

Services, such as healthcare, public infrastructure, public transport, energy etc should be run by the state. There is always a conflict of interest when companies run these things because they care about profit / shareholder return more than they care about the people. Now, the fact that the state is often corrupt is another problem that should also be fixed but i just don’t buy the argument that companies should ru…

State has conflict of interest as well. It is entity that is trying to save and extract money, just like big corporation. Lets not pretend it is somehow more moral!

But in democratic states the people also hold the reins on the other end via elections. You don’t get to vote for CEOs or their boards or their boards largest shareholders for $0.

So yeah they’re characteristically different.

Re: A ticking time bomb: healthcare under threat across western Europe

#29

Post by sharikous »

throw6383878 wrote: post #27
virtual_void wrote: post #17

Services, such as healthcare, public infrastructure, public transport, energy etc should be run by the state. There is always a conflict of interest when companies run these things because they care about profit / shareholder return more than they care about the people. Now, the fact that the state is often corrupt is another problem that should also be fixed but i just don’t buy the argument that companies should ru…

State has conflict of interest as well. It is entity that is trying to save and extract money, just like big corporation. Lets not pretend it is somehow more moral!

Yes the point where people have a say is:

- state -> elections

- corporations -> competition

There are many possible scenarios in both cases where the interest of the people becomes irrelevant because of corruption, cartels, etc...

Re: A ticking time bomb: healthcare under threat across western Europe

#30

Post by ProjectArcturis »

nopenopenopeno wrote: post #22
wolongong942 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right wing parties haven't had much say in western Europe as of recent, unless you've re-defined right wing. We're having the same issues here in NZ and it accelerated with a left wing govt.

NZ has never had a left wing government. NZ's government is neoliberal, which is not left wing in any way. Neoliberalism is in all actuality right wing.

If you're calling Jacinda Ahern a right-winger, the term has lost all meaning. Do you need the state to seize the means of production in order to call a government left-wing?
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