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Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

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Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#521

Post by thatcat »

polynox wrote: post #477
skissane wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> While I think it is certainly fair to talk about the policies of other countries, I don't think just because another country has a different policy necessarily dictates that policy is better or worse. Sure. But if a person is aware that other countries have different policies, that gives them a legitimate reason to question whether the policy of their own country is correct. If a person looks into the matter, and d…

I trust that when I drive over a bridge it won't collapse. But I cannot say I know that the bridge won't collapse. Knowledge is a true and justified belief. But trust is not a justification - quite the opposite. If you had a justification, you wouldn't need trust. Trust whomever you want, on whatever basis you want, but that's fundamentally not reason or rationality, it's just an argument from authority [1]. No state…

You could do some theoretical calculations about bridges yourself, inspect for cracks, and prove from first principles that the bridge is in fact safe; it's not some complicated biological process.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#522

Post by yosame »

__blockcipher__ wrote: post #449
vannevar wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem here isn't the study---of course we should study possible vaccine side effects. The problem is the massive leaps of logic being made by people who have (quite wrongly, based on available evidence) become convinced that the vaccines are a greater threat to healthy people than the virus is. As unlikely as it is that an otherwise healthy young person will die from covid, it is even less likely that they'll d…

> The problem is the massive leaps of logic being made by people who have (quite wrongly, based on available evidence) become convinced that the vaccines are a greater threat to healthy people than the virus is. That may be true overall (and it may not btw, only time will tell), but it's certainly not true on a by-indvidual basis. Someone who's, say, 18 with no major health disorders is going to experience a lot more…

You literally just made the wild leap of logic the parent comment was talking about.

The mRNA vaccines have a modified spike protein, that is non functional compared to natural infection. On top of that, cells naturally infected with covid also express the spike protein [1], and would do so in far greater amounts than what would be caused by the vaccine.

People's different genetic dispositions will change their immune response, and that might maybe change how they respond to the vaccine as opposed to the virus. But there's no way of knowing which way you will fall, and our current evidence suggests that getting the vaccine is probably always the safer alternative.

[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8941975/

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#523

Post by shagie »

Izkata wrote: post #476
shagie wrote: post #456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 50 micromorts per day is from the excess deaths in NYC during spring of 2020 and comparing that mortality to being a soldier in Afghanistan in 2010. I don't believe that comparing those two is unreasonable. However, to your last question that is what micomorts can answer. The risk of death from a vaccination is 2.9 micromorts. The risk of death from contracting Covid-19 for a 25 year old is 100 micromorts. So 30x…

> The 50 micromorts per day is from the excess deaths in NYC during spring of 2020 and comparing that mortality to being a soldier in Afghanistan in 2010. So in other words it's pretty inflated. 1) Putting covid-positive patients in nursing homes instead of isolating them 2) Excess use of ventilators set to maximum 3) Omicron 4) I feel like I'm forgetting something...

The NYC numbers are from the spring of 2020. This was before Omicron and before Delta.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6919e5.htm was a initial report on the excess deaths in NYC in the spring of 2020.

The by age micromorts are based on a paper that was published in December of 2020. Delta was first detected in the US in Feb of 2021 and named in May of 2021 - again, those numbers are before Delta and Omicron (and vaccination).

The numbers may not be current, but they are not inflated. They are an accurate representation of the excess deaths at that time.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#524

Post by simplotek »

skissane wrote: post #303
vannevar wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem here isn't the study---of course we should study possible vaccine side effects. The problem is the massive leaps of logic being made by people who have (quite wrongly, based on available evidence) become convinced that the vaccines are a greater threat to healthy people than the virus is. As unlikely as it is that an otherwise healthy young person will die from covid, it is even less likely that they'll d…

> The problem is the massive leaps of logic being made by people who have (quite wrongly, based on available evidence) become convinced that the vaccines are a greater threat to healthy people than the virus is. In some cases, it may well be true that the vaccine is a greater risk than the virus. For example, in Australia, the official recommendation is that healthy people under 30 not receive a fourth dose of COVID-…

> For example, in Australia, the official recommendation is that healthy people under 30 not receive a fourth dose of COVID-19 vaccine (...)

It should be stressed that this guidance explicitly refers to a fourth dose of a vaccine. I feel it's disingenuous to use this example to try to refute the OP when the problem lies in people taking massive leaps of logic such as going from "it's ok to take 3 doses of a vaccine but the benefits of a fourth might not justify it" to "don't get vaccinated ever because you will die".

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#525

Post by Eisenstein »

adamiscool8 wrote: post #489
Eisenstein wrote: post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make a very good point, but like in times of invasion where conscription is something I would argue is necessary, in times of other emergency then there is the possibility we must give up some independence of our person and perform compulsory acts. This may not be as obvious as getting a needle jabbed into your arm, but rationing water and food, joining in labor to clear wreckage/debris or rebuild, or taking arms…

The problem with that line of thinking, to me, is we have state apparatuses fully and ever-increasingly capable of manufacturing crises to compel individuals in ways that would otherwise not be acceptable. On top of that, I see a qualitative difference between a compulsion of labor or rations impeding bodily autonomy in a superficial sense, and the compulsion of injections (or lobotomies, or sterilization) which seem…

I see where you are coming from, but I would caution against such comparisons to lobotomies and eugenics. Those interventions were not in response to a large-scale crisis but were novel methods of solving problems for which there had been no previous solution.

I think my comparisons are more apt because they involve sacrifice and risk, but not incontrovertible harm. People getting the vaccine were mitigating a personal risk which at that time happened to be in line with what was believed to be a societal need (herd immunity) -- a minute chance of an adverse effect, compared to the yet-unknown effects of covid itself was deemed to be acceptable.

Was it a poor decision? Looking back on it, yes. If placed in the same position of a society-disrupting and mass-death causing pandemic with a new vaccine which has all the signs of being able to fast-track herd immunity and save millions of lives, would I be fine with mandatory vaccinations? Probably. Should we be incredibly careful when it comes to doing things like that and putting in place the mechanisms for similar actions? Absolutely.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#526

Post by yosame »

kyleblarson wrote: post #391
ajross wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

"two weeks to flatten the curve", "if you get the vaccine you won't get covid", "the vaccine is 95% effective", "the vaccine is 80% effective", "the vaccine is 50% effective", "well you'll still get covid but you won't spread it to others", "well actually you can spread it to others"

Covid was mutating, that's why the advice kept changing. Vaccines were 80% effective, than immune escape happened and the vaccines got less effective. At the same time, covid was getting better at spreading, which is why 2 weeks to flatten the curve wasn't enough.

It's not a bad thing for experts to change their opinion as new evidence comes out.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#527

Post by wellthatsawrap2 »

ethanbond wrote: post #503
lmm wrote: post #483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Requiring restaurants/gyms/etc. to require customers to be vaccinated.

Yep, states have more or less complete authority to mandate things like this. https://tile.loc.gov/storage-services/service/ll/usrep/usrep...

He asked if it had ever been done before.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#528

Post by smeej »

rnd0 wrote: post #516
meindnoch wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s the paradox of intelligence: smart people are more prone to fight tooth and nail, and do all kinds of mental gymnastics, rather than to admit that they too have been misled. People of average or below average intelligence tend to accept it much more easily. I don’t know if there’s already a name for this phenomenon…

I don't either. Personally speaking, after watching the effects of disinformation campaigns over the last 7 or so years -particularly regarding Covid and vaccinations I am pretty much 1,000% unwilling to listen to any "skepticism" simply because I don't trust the source that anyone is getting their information from. The only reasonable course I can see is to not take any chances and vaccinate early and vaccinate ofte…

Why would you trust the source on the side that's telling you something new, but not the side that's skeptical of it?

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#529

Post by JamisonM »

graeme wrote: post #511
VancouverMan wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have to be extremely cautious when considering any of the death-related statistics for this particular situation. For example, we know that a dubious methodology was used for counting deaths in Toronto (Canada's most populous city, and the fourth most populous city in North America). This was publicly admitted to by Toronto Public Health itself, as early as June 2020: "Individuals who have died with COVID-19, but…

You have to look at both sides of the equation. There are excess deaths in every region coinciding with Covid spikes. It takes enormous mental gymnastics to say “some deaths were over counted so deaths as a whole must be over counted” and completely discount the probability of missing deaths too. The recent Paxlovid study supports this. It reduces deaths days 30-90. Deaths that would not be counted as Covid deaths. B…

Yeah, it is just wacky stuff for people to be "COVID-19 NBD" while the hospitals are full and the morgues can't keep up with refrigeration requirements... it is not worth engaging with. The exact count doesn't matter, the spikes demonstrate the truth of the issue.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#530

Post by RhysU »

gamacodre wrote: post #374
danhak wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is that there were coercive government mandates. "Almost everyone should get vaccinated" does not mean the government should coerce everyone into making the correct medical decision by barring them from employment or access to private establishments. Absent a very compelling reason, people should be free to go against medical advice. People have the right to do whatever they want with their bodies. People h…

> ...does not mean the government should coerce everyone... Here you're presuming that the government's role in a pandemic is to wring their hands and issue PSA's. That might be what some folks want them to do these days, but when the legal foundations of public health policy were laid the government was expected to do quite a bit more. > People have the right to do whatever they want with their bodies. This might be…

And... They... Just... Keep... On... Using... It.

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/10/13/us-extends-covid-public-heal...

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