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Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

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Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#471

Post by nradov »

ajross wrote: post #288
nradov wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No that's not P-hacking. The majority of US residents have been infected at this point. The sizes of those population groups both with and without serious pre-existing conditions are so huge that there is minimal chance of an incorrect random result. Your link is not relevant to this issue so I don't know what point you're trying to make. To be clear I support vaccination. But patients should make their own decisions…

Right, you have a hypothesis. But you don't have data. Trying to tease out evidence for your hypothesis from existing data by slicing the data set up is the very definition of p-hacking. If you refuse to believe existing work on the basis of an unmeasured hypothesis, well, that's a different sort of logical fallacy on top of the bad statistics. And FWIW, if you want a more complete (but much less amusing) explainer o…

Wrong, I do not have a hypothesis (or any sort of preconceived notion). I am just curious to see what the data shows about risk stratification across age groups with and without common risk factors. Do you have any references to recent peer reviewed studies on that topic?

I'm not sure why you're trying to derail the discussion by bringing up data dredging. That would only potentially be relevant as a possible criticism of the methodology in a particular study. So what's your point?

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#472

Post by skissane »

dekhn wrote: post #464
skissane wrote: post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that military people (or right-wing media) began to turn this into an issue that people cared about Historically, the majority of opposition to vaccines has been "left-wing" rather than "right-wing". It was only really with COVID that it suddenly picked up on the right as well. I've had some rather frustrating conversations online with people (mostly Americans it seems) who are utterly convinced that it is fundamen…

I am not aware of what was the case historically (roughly before I was vaccinated as a kid), but I will point out the switch happened before covid- around 2015- and was fairly partisan. Note that extreme idealogies sort of "wrap around" the political spectrum- another area with extremely low vax rates for some time was Marin, which is highly educated and liberal.

I wonder to what extent any "partisan switch" is primarily a US thing? Here in Australia, while some right-leaning people (especially the "hard" right) have in recent years become "anti-vaccine", I haven't seen any comparable evidence of traditional left-leaning "anti-vaccine" adherents abandoning it

I can think of two people my wife and I know personally who are vocally "anti-vax" – one is a rather conservative Christian, the other is a woman with a long-standing interest in the New Age / Tarot / occult / crystals / psychics / alternative medicine / etc. The first, when we were younger (15–20 years ago), I used to run in his circles a lot, and I never heard anybody say anything remotely against vaccines at any of the churches / youth groups / bible studies / etc we used to attend together. He only started becoming "anti-vax" around when COVID started, and it obviously had a lot to do with US politics (he was a big Trump fan, and so was his church–I'm not sure if they still feel the same way about him now), despite living on the other side of the planet. Even then, he was always primarily "anti-COVID vax" rather than "anti-vax" in general.

Our "New Age" friend, her being "anti-vax" was entirely expected, because "anti-vax" opinions have always been very common among people like her. She became very political about it around COVID, organising protests, etc. It became even more intense when she lost her government job (as an adult vocational education teacher) due to her refusal to be vaccinated against COVID. But, the anti-vax protest movement she became involved in was rather left-leaning, it was all composed of New Age types, hippies, etc, who live in a "hippy area" (the Northern Rivers district of New South Wales). I think if someone like our other friend – a conservative Christian spouting pro-Trump rhetoric – had turned up at one of her protests, she would have run them off.

> Note that extreme idealogies sort of "wrap around" the political spectrum

I don't know if that's really true though. While opposition to COVID vaccination may be one of the very few things these two friends of ours could agree on, I think their reasons for their respective positions are very different. I'm not sure the whole "wrap around" or "horseshoe" thesis is really that useful in understanding why two people from opposite ends of the political spectrum may occasionally end up agreeing on something, even something outside the mainstream.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#473

Post by zhrvoj »

eli wrote: post #460
rednerrus wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The vaccine isn't preventing COVID, it's just limiting symptoms. Does it lower the risk of myocarditis from COVID? I just looked. The Vaccine doesn't lower your risk of getting myocarditis if you still become infected by COVID.

You are wrong. The vaccine absolutely reduces your odds of getting covid in the first place.

Getting covid once right after sleeping in same space with all vaccinated. Positive - stayed at home - pretended to be ill. Friend, vaccinated, panicking getting covid after vacc.. Buut..this is Divide and Conquer, don't you see?

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#474

Post by abracadaniel »

ukFxqnLa2sBSBf6 wrote: post #452
hammock wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Complication from jab administration is something that has been widely discussed (not widely reported though). The clinical trials were supposed to show that the jab (and therefore the mRNA, and the resultant spike protein generated, which is known to be toxic) stayed in the muscle local to the injection site. What is widely speculated is that on some not-insubstantial portion of injections, the jab makes it int…

I wonder if having larger arm muscles reduces this risk. Great workout motivation if so.

Or, maybe that leads to more vasculature and more chance of hitting a vein? It's interesting that it was more prevalent in young men than other demographics.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#475

Post by RocketOne »

claytongulick wrote: post #369
vannevar wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem here isn't the study---of course we should study possible vaccine side effects. The problem is the massive leaps of logic being made by people who have (quite wrongly, based on available evidence) become convinced that the vaccines are a greater threat to healthy people than the virus is. As unlikely as it is that an otherwise healthy young person will die from covid, it is even less likely that they'll d…

Many other people have replied with great information, but I'm going to respectfully disagree with: > The problem is the massive leaps of logic being made by people who have (quite wrongly, based on available evidence) become convinced that the vaccines are a greater threat to healthy people than the virus is. I believe the problem is that we were so convinced that our solution to covid was infallible that we removed…

I couldnt have written that any better. And THIS is why thousands of people showed up in downtown Ottawa and stayed for three weeks. Because we were disgusted and DEEPLY offended by the hubris.

And what was the gov's response? An even greater swing toward authoritarianism - the Canadian government literally locked people out of their own bank accounts, seized property and arrested and charged hundreds.

Incredible. Absolutely incredible. The anger is still palpable. And its going to simmer til our current gov is replaced.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#476

Post by Izkata »

shagie wrote: post #456
Mawr wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Converting this to micromort language, an individual living in New York City has experienced roughly 50 additional micromorts of risk per day because of Covid-19. That means you were roughly twice as likely to die as you would have been if you were serving in the U.S. armed forces in Afghanistan throughout 2010, a particularly deadly year." This is highly misleading. The average individual may be at such risk, jus…

The 50 micromorts per day is from the excess deaths in NYC during spring of 2020 and comparing that mortality to being a soldier in Afghanistan in 2010. I don't believe that comparing those two is unreasonable. However, to your last question that is what micomorts can answer. The risk of death from a vaccination is 2.9 micromorts. The risk of death from contracting Covid-19 for a 25 year old is 100 micromorts. So 30x…

> The 50 micromorts per day is from the excess deaths in NYC during spring of 2020 and comparing that mortality to being a soldier in Afghanistan in 2010.

So in other words it's pretty inflated.

1) Putting covid-positive patients in nursing homes instead of isolating them

2) Excess use of ventilators set to maximum

3) Omicron

4) I feel like I'm forgetting something...

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#477

Post by polynox »

skissane wrote: post #419
birken wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I think it is certainly fair to talk about the policies of other countries, I don't think just because another country has a different policy necessarily dictates that policy is better or worse. Additionally, I think it's very easy to see something like "Denmark doesn't recommend the vaccines to anybody under 50" and conflate that it means that Denmark doesn't think vaccines were ever beneficial to people under…

> While I think it is certainly fair to talk about the policies of other countries, I don't think just because another country has a different policy necessarily dictates that policy is better or worse. Sure. But if a person is aware that other countries have different policies, that gives them a legitimate reason to question whether the policy of their own country is correct. If a person looks into the matter, and d…

I trust that when I drive over a bridge it won't collapse.

But I cannot say I know that the bridge won't collapse.

Knowledge is a true and justified belief. But trust is not a justification - quite the opposite. If you had a justification, you wouldn't need trust.

Trust whomever you want, on whatever basis you want, but that's fundamentally not reason or rationality, it's just an argument from authority [1]. No statement becomes more true just because someone said it, regardless of who they are.

I'm not saying it's easy or even possible to do in practice. Science is insanely complex. But let's not confuse trust for rationality, not least of which because it brings to the fore the very real need for institutions that are worthy of our trust.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#478

Post by Izkata »

lamontcg wrote: post #294
tempsy wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, so if you believe your chance of dying of covid is improbably small due to age and overall health, why is it necessary to be vaccinated even if there's only a small chance of side effects? Rare is not zero. I don't even take OTC pain killers like advil unless I absolutely feel like I have to.

Because the risk of e.g. dying of myocarditis from the virus still exceeds the risk of dying of myocarditis from the vaccine. Particularly with the mRNA vaccines there isn't much in the vaccine that isn't in the virus already. There has to be a name for this fallacy. It is like we're living in the dark ages where contracting covid is just "God's will" and it doesn't count in risk assessments, while no matter how smal…

> Because the risk of e.g. dying of myocarditis from the virus still exceeds the risk of dying of myocarditis from the vaccine.

There's several studies that have shown myocarditis from the virus is indistinguishable from previously-measured myocarditis in the population in general - that the virus isn't actually causing any. At least one of them included vaccine-caused myocarditis and showed it's several times higher.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#479

Post by mancerayder »

api wrote: post #443
meindnoch wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s the paradox of intelligence: smart people are more prone to fight tooth and nail, and do all kinds of mental gymnastics, rather than to admit that they too have been misled. People of average or below average intelligence tend to accept it much more easily. I don’t know if there’s already a name for this phenomenon…

In my experience smart people are also far more likely to create elaborate self-reinforcing systems of belief that are detached from reality. Any moron can understand the idea of a round Earth and stuff orbiting around it. It takes a genius to comprehend the sublime intricacies of ether vortex theory which explains how a flat Earth can still permit satellites to stay airborne over the plane. I've met an extremely int…

That sounds a lot more like creativity than capacity to reason logically, or a number of other facets of intelligence. That's probably part of the issue, which properties of 'intelligence' we are talking about.

There are also a lot of crazy and intelligent people. I certainly know so many, it almost becomes a correlation.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#480

Post by chiefalchemist »

vannevar wrote: post #144
nulld3v wrote: post #67

I am vaccinated but I am upvoting this post because I believe that it is important to investigate these cases to determine how to improve future vaccines. I really don't like how this topic seems to be treated like some fringe conspiracy theory. Maybe it is just a conspiracy, but we won't ever know until sufficient research has been done. Currently, I still believe that people should vaccinate, even if vaccines cause…

The problem here isn't the study---of course we should study possible vaccine side effects. The problem is the massive leaps of logic being made by people who have (quite wrongly, based on available evidence) become convinced that the vaccines are a greater threat to healthy people than the virus is. As unlikely as it is that an otherwise healthy young person will die from covid, it is even less likely that they'll d…

> we have millions of both covid cases and vaccinations to back that up.

This study looked at 25 cases of unexpected death in

Fair enough, but where is that data? Why a study of only 25 if there are millions?

It's not a conspiracy theory to say such things simply don't add up. The largest drug test in history and no encompassing and definitive follow up? Why?

Not trolling. Serious question (i.e., why).

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