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Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

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Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#351

Post by sethammons »

ghastmaster wrote: post #263
nulld3v wrote: post #67

I am vaccinated but I am upvoting this post because I believe that it is important to investigate these cases to determine how to improve future vaccines. I really don't like how this topic seems to be treated like some fringe conspiracy theory. Maybe it is just a conspiracy, but we won't ever know until sufficient research has been done. Currently, I still believe that people should vaccinate, even if vaccines cause…

> As long as vaccine side effects cause less deaths and less harm than the virus, vaccination is still the way to go. Assuming the vaccine prevents or lessens the effects of infection, this is logical. A common belief is that the vaccine is virtually useless. If this belief is true or close to true, then taking the vaccine would result in an increase in risk.

Utilitarian ideas like this are the basis of every story of the rogue AI that locks up humanity for its own safety.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#352

Post by VancouverMan »

shagie wrote: post #231
tempsy wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, so if you believe your chance of dying of covid is improbably small due to age and overall health, why is it necessary to be vaccinated even if there's only a small chance of side effects? Rare is not zero. I don't even take OTC pain killers like advil unless I absolutely feel like I have to.

That first part is a mistaken belief. There's also a useful metric for the "chance of dying" - it's known as a micromort. Each micromort is a one in a million chance of dying https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micromort A fair bit of statistical work has been done on COVID-19 and it is summarized in the wikipedia article. AstraZeneca vaccination against COVID-19 – 2.9 micromorts[31] COVID-19 infection at age 10 – 20 micro…

We have to be extremely cautious when considering any of the death-related statistics for this particular situation.

For example, we know that a dubious methodology was used for counting deaths in Toronto (Canada's most populous city, and the fourth most populous city in North America).

This was publicly admitted to by Toronto Public Health itself, as early as June 2020:

"Individuals who have died with COVID-19, but not as a result of COVID-19 are included in the case counts for COVID-19 deaths in Toronto."

https://twitter.com/TOPublicHealth/status/127588839006028596...

I can't see how that significant city's death stats could be considered reliable or usable for analytic purposes, after considering how the counting was done. The provincial and national stats would also be affected to some extent.

This makes me quite doubtful about the stats coming out of other regions, too.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#353

Post by mrguyorama »

ethanbond wrote: post #244
danhak wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is that there were coercive government mandates. "Almost everyone should get vaccinated" does not mean the government should coerce everyone into making the correct medical decision by barring them from employment or access to private establishments. Absent a very compelling reason, people should be free to go against medical advice. People have the right to do whatever they want with their bodies. People h…

You don't get to dismiss an argument by just declaring that it "didn't pass the smell test." That guidance was exactly in line with every counter-pathogen campaign since, Idk, before germ theory?

The worst part is that we have already comprehensively litigated all of this. The spanish flu had people protesting being forced to wear masks and other societal health measures and the Supreme court affirmed the US's right to mandate those kind of large scale health things.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#354

Post by kennend3 »

vfclists wrote: post #317
kennend3 wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is also the "Canadian doctors" story the anti-vax group continue to flog yet it has being proven wrong over and over again. https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2022/11/07/why-wont-a-de... One of the doctors drowned in a river attempting to save his kids, yet the anti-vax group elect to leverage his tragedy for their narrative.

> One of the doctors drowned in a river attempting to save his kids, yet the anti-vax group elect to leverage his tragedy for their narrative. One out of how many?

The number of doctors who "died" after getting their fourth dose is a moving target, but the article i posted did a bit of a breakdown:

" The cluster of deaths back in the summer helped kindle what is now a fire — a conspiracy theory that today peddles a list of dozens of doctors online, including the three who died in July, as well as — according to its own descriptions — several who drowned, one who was in the middle of biking 105 kilometres and a doctor who died coming down K2, a mountain deadlier than Everest. "

It started out as "three" doctors, now it is "dozens".

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#355

Post by sudden_dystopia »

vannevar wrote: post #144
nulld3v wrote: post #67

I am vaccinated but I am upvoting this post because I believe that it is important to investigate these cases to determine how to improve future vaccines. I really don't like how this topic seems to be treated like some fringe conspiracy theory. Maybe it is just a conspiracy, but we won't ever know until sufficient research has been done. Currently, I still believe that people should vaccinate, even if vaccines cause…

The problem here isn't the study---of course we should study possible vaccine side effects. The problem is the massive leaps of logic being made by people who have (quite wrongly, based on available evidence) become convinced that the vaccines are a greater threat to healthy people than the virus is. As unlikely as it is that an otherwise healthy young person will die from covid, it is even less likely that they'll d…

They are making these leaps of logic because people have refused to look into it…

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#356

Post by [deleted] »

nulld3v wrote: post #67

I am vaccinated but I am upvoting this post because I believe that it is important to investigate these cases to determine how to improve future vaccines. I really don't like how this topic seems to be treated like some fringe conspiracy theory. Maybe it is just a conspiracy, but we won't ever know until sufficient research has been done. Currently, I still believe that people should vaccinate, even if vaccines cause…

[deleted]

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#358

Post by lurquer »

ajross wrote: post #269
nradov wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do those numbers change when you adjust for presence or absence of pre-existing conditions such as obesity and type-2 diabetes?

Please don't. What you are doing is called "P-hacking". Yes, if you keep selecting for subsets of a dataset you'll eventually find one that, just due to random chance, looks like a statistically significant result that proves whatever it is you want to see. That's not the way you do science. As always, xkcd explains it best: https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/882:_Significant

The global risk of death from childbirth is X.

It isn’t p-hacking for a dude to inquire what the chances are for the male subgroup.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#359

Post by SoftTalker »

ngvrnd wrote: post #298
giarc wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As we say in epidemiology (and other fields), absence of evidence, isn't evidence of absence.

but it is somewhat suggestive of absence.

No, it really doesn't suggest anything either way.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#360

Post by kurthr »

bombcar wrote: post #329
lamontcg wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a highly specious argument that the unvaccinated were putting other people at significant risk. The unvaccinated were filling up the hospitals which was putting other people at risk. Your right to gamble with your health ends when you expect to be able to get treatment if the gamble comes out badly.

> Your right to gamble with your health ends when you expect to be able to get treatment if the gamble comes out badly. I wonder how that would apply to obesity and unprotected sex.

Um, obesity is an individual issue (at least at the current levels of hospital load associated with it) so your insurance and bills go up. Unprotected sex has two people involved and can be assault (if not agreed to) and if done by someone who knows they are HIV positive and infects another who dies... manslaughter.
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