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Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

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Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#241

Post by jfengel »

gamacodre wrote: post #153
nulld3v wrote: post #67

I am vaccinated but I am upvoting this post because I believe that it is important to investigate these cases to determine how to improve future vaccines. I really don't like how this topic seems to be treated like some fringe conspiracy theory. Maybe it is just a conspiracy, but we won't ever know until sufficient research has been done. Currently, I still believe that people should vaccinate, even if vaccines cause…

This has bugged me since the beginning of this mess. It ought to be possible to say "Hey this looks kind of funny, could the vaccines be having weird effects in this .0000001% of the population?" without daggers coming out all around. It seems perfectly reasonable to me that "The SARS-Cov-2 vaccines occasionally cause health problems" and "Almost everyone should get vaccinated/boosted" are both entirely true statemen…

Yeah, it sure ought to be.

But the same people who believe that evolution and climate change are hoaxes are also convinced that COVID is a hoax. (The disease is a hoax, the vaccine is a hoax, the hoax disease that doesn't need to be cured by the hoax vaccine is an attack by China -- and the coverup is a hoax.)

And those people are ~40% of the US population, with an outsized thumb on the scale of elections due to accidents of geography and history. So instead of talking cogently about tradeoffs, we're barely fending off turning conspiracy theories into policy. And by "barely" I mean "succeeding slightly more often than we fail".

Yeah, we ought to be able to discuss things cogently. That ship sailed a long time ago.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#242

Post by MrMan »

fein wrote: post #44
gfodor wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where is that still happening? (Genuine q)

In the USA on a government level? No idea, at least it isn't a thing around where I live, but I also sit at home and get paid to write software. No idea what applying for jobs in some industries might look like. On the social level? People have fractured families over it and/or forced(you can't see your grand children unless you're vaxxed, for example)/coerced family members into getting it despite their otherwise re…

I think it’s an excellent sorting mechanism

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#243

Post by joshuahedlund »

hammock wrote: post #207
ceejayoz wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're probably low, if anything. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Undercounting_of_COVID-19_pand... The chart on https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm shows all cause deaths before and during the pandemic; there's an extremely clear difference, and it coincides closely with the spikes in COVID cases we've seen. This method of reporting avoids all the complexities around "died with COVID" vs "die…

>it coincides closely with the spikes in COVID cases we've seen. Aren't there about 100 other confounders that could be in the mix there

If it was one general noisy correlation, I would agree. But there are multiple spikes that go up and down and match almost precisely with the multiple waves of covid, persisting through many shifts in other factors (like downstream effects of different levels of lockdown) with almost no change in the trends for all other deaths beside it. It's about as close of a correlation as you can ever hope for with real-world data.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#244

Post by ethanbond »

danhak wrote: post #213
gamacodre wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has bugged me since the beginning of this mess. It ought to be possible to say "Hey this looks kind of funny, could the vaccines be having weird effects in this .0000001% of the population?" without daggers coming out all around. It seems perfectly reasonable to me that "The SARS-Cov-2 vaccines occasionally cause health problems" and "Almost everyone should get vaccinated/boosted" are both entirely true statemen…

The issue is that there were coercive government mandates. "Almost everyone should get vaccinated" does not mean the government should coerce everyone into making the correct medical decision by barring them from employment or access to private establishments. Absent a very compelling reason, people should be free to go against medical advice. People have the right to do whatever they want with their bodies. People h…

You don't get to dismiss an argument by just declaring that it "didn't pass the smell test." That guidance was exactly in line with every counter-pathogen campaign since, Idk, before germ theory?

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#245

Post by nradov »

shagie wrote: post #231
tempsy wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, so if you believe your chance of dying of covid is improbably small due to age and overall health, why is it necessary to be vaccinated even if there's only a small chance of side effects? Rare is not zero. I don't even take OTC pain killers like advil unless I absolutely feel like I have to.

That first part is a mistaken belief. There's also a useful metric for the "chance of dying" - it's known as a micromort. Each micromort is a one in a million chance of dying https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micromort A fair bit of statistical work has been done on COVID-19 and it is summarized in the wikipedia article. AstraZeneca vaccination against COVID-19 – 2.9 micromorts[31] COVID-19 infection at age 10 – 20 micro…

How do those numbers change when you adjust for presence or absence of pre-existing conditions such as obesity and type-2 diabetes?

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#246

Post by bryanlarsen »

dtauzell wrote: post #199
vannevar wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because a) the risk from covid, while small, is still greater than the risk from the vaccines and b) unvaccinated people are more likely to be infected and become a vector for the virus, infecting other people.

Is there any evidence for (b)? My understanding is that you are just as likely to get vaccinated and "shed" the virus for just as long, but are less likely to be severely sick.

Your understanding is wrong. Vaccinated and unvaccinated people with symptomatic COVID shed at comparable rates, but vaccinated people are less likely to get symptomatic COVID. The difference wanes considerably if your last shot was > 6 months ago, but is still present.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#247

Post by gfodor »

spacefracas wrote: post #234
gfodor wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not for an emergency use drug that doesn’t maintain herd immunity for a disease that is minimally harmful to children and is under immense selective pressure to break out of the vaccine. Maybe you’ve got a bad mental model because of the word “vaccine.” This is not a vaccine of the kind we give children, in terms of what it prevents and the extent of data and knowledge we have of its side effects.

This is incorrect. Of the vaccines that are given to children, none prevent infection. All significantly prevent disease and death.

This feels like pure revisionism. The purpose of the vaccination programs for children is not to prevent severe disease or death, though that is a nice benefit. The purpose, and manifested effect, is to maintain population herd immunity due to the fact these vaccines radically reduce the chance of the child acting as a vector. The consequence is a vastly reduced incidence rate across the whole population due to this network effect vs a scenario with no mandate. This was widely understood to be the ethical justification for mandating these vaccines: it led to a collective benefit, counterfactually preventing massive suffering across many individual, a benefit which outweighs the risk to the individual from taking these drugs. This fundamental premise is entirely not the case for this vaccine program, which does not come close to helping with herd immunity for a disease we now acknowledge is endemic, and also happens to have a wildly different relative risk profile for children vs the other vaccines we mandate.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#248

Post by Daishiman »

encryptluks2 wrote: post #181
vannevar wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem here isn't the study---of course we should study possible vaccine side effects. The problem is the massive leaps of logic being made by people who have (quite wrongly, based on available evidence) become convinced that the vaccines are a greater threat to healthy people than the virus is. As unlikely as it is that an otherwise healthy young person will die from covid, it is even less likely that they'll d…

There is a lot of evidence that the system to report vaccine injuries is largely ignored and people that report issues are ostracized for doing so. It also begs to question how often injuries would go unreported or misreported because of the difficulties of being linked to the actual cause, and many doctors may be unwilling to claim a vaccine caused an injury just due to the stigma around vaccine injuries, especially…

No post body was provided.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#249

Post by sfusato »

manwe150 wrote: post #216
jerkstate wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But we know for certain that they were all very safe drivers /s

Just curious, but are you referring to the recent Canadian study that showed people who self-selected for vaccination may also be associated with being safer drivers? https://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002-9343(22)00822-1/fulltex...

There's a good take on this study here: https://igorchudov.substack.com/p/the-unvaccinated-had-more-...

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#250

Post by ejb999 »

usefulcat wrote: post #94
Mikeb85 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but aren't the side-effects of covid well established, on average more severe, and much more common? You forgot to account for the risk of getting the virus. If you choose to get the vaccine, the probability is 1. But what's the probability of getting Covid? Definitely less than 1. For certain age groups (young men), the risk of complications * probability of getting the vaccine (1) was more than the risk of compli…

> COVID hasn't been shown to be particularly dangerous to young people... In the short term yes, in the long term, that is not known.

>>In the short term yes, in the long term, that is not known.

Same can be said about the vaccine. The full story has not been written yet.

Investigate everything, make it available to the public, let people decide for themselves what to put in their body.

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