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Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

robkhenderson.substack.com

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Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#101

Post by mmaunder »

Wealth signaling and its effects are rather depressing. People going into debt to buy a Rolex and a sports car to create the illusion of success is bad enough. Someone falling for an individual mismanaging their own finances to create a lie is quite sad.

I was listening to a pop station yesterday and a song was playing that was like a top 5 of fashion brands, they way the singer kept listing them off. So I think elements of our culture pressure people into doing this kind of painful signaling.

I think signaling or counter signaling should be avoided if you want to preserve your sanity. Find something you’re passionate about and find others who feel the same. Hang out. Make best friends. Date. Get married. Be happy.

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#102

Post by ehnto »

coryrc wrote: post #84
steveBK123 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's truly crazy to me how quickly pricing has ramped up especially in EVs. Imagine telling someone 10 years ago that people would line up to buy a $60k Hyundai EV, or $80k on a luxury Hyundai sub-brand EV? The Tesla Model 3/Y range can easily run up above $70k with options now, and the bigger Tesla Model S/X is a six-figures vehicle! Likewise, gas powered BMWs seem to have disappeared in the $30-40k range and pretty…

I figure GP's talking about gas trucks. We're talking working class people spending over a year's gross income on a truck, when in the past they'd be buying a "work truck" with a single bench seat, no A/C, and an AM radio.

I don't want to make assumptions, but it's my understanding that they're usually on finance which means they're paying much more than sticker price.

I certainly don't know many middle class people with 70k in savings to throw around, either everyone is doing a lot better than they otherwise expose or there's easy money on the table.

I think we'll see price corrections downward for cars over the next 5 years, as interest rates change. I've asked a handful of importers while I try and source a car from Japan, with the Japanese import market being hyper inflated. They've all suggested that during the pandemic, financed purchases were making up the majority of their sales. I imagine that's set to change as interest rates change and loans get harder to acquire.

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#103

Post by eternalban »

Obscurity4340 wrote: post #12
jonnycomputer wrote: post #5

Boss gives a dinner party at their home for their employees. All the guests show up in their best. Boss is in shorts, t-shirt and sandals.

Top shelf power play. This guy Zooms

You missed the part where the maid serves little burgers on buns as lunch.

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#104

Post by tgv »

jonnycomputer wrote: post #9
pavlov wrote: post #6

> “Some writers are so well known that, despite having millions of followers, they literally don’t promote anything they write on social media. That is some strong countersignaling.” This was every writer until about 13 years ago. That’s not a long time in a field where people can have 70 year long careers. It’s interesting to consider how “doing the thing I’ve always done” can quickly become seen as countersignallin…

Yeah, and I don't think its counter-signalling either. Successful authors are likely to have people actively promoting their work for them; the one thing others can't do for them is write (unless they're willing to have other people perform the work they are known for).

It's seems to be hard for people to imagine there are more channels than Twitter. They are on twitter, everybody they know is on twitter, and by that they judge everything.

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#105

Post by steveBK123 »

blagie wrote: post #89
steveBK123 wrote: post #47

"An example from Ogilvy Vice Chairman Rory Sutherland: If you’re a top executive, turning up to work on a bicycle is a high-status activity because it was a choice and not a necessity. But if you work at Pizza Hut, turning up on a bike means you can’t afford a car." This tidbit reminds me of a similar anecdote (that my experience aligns with) re: the modern upper class that wearing a $2k Rolex or driving a $70k BMW i…

Doing something for pure status signalling is considered crass. Expensive hobbies are not. I think they should be, but they're not.

Exactly. To me, a $500k unnecessary renovation throws more money away than a $70k vs $40k car. At least with the car you are likely getting safety features and extensive sensor suites for driver assist for the money, that have tangible impact on your driving experience.

Or Spending 5-10x on a $10k appliance where a $1-2k one would do. These people tend to get the whole set, so it's a good $30-40k worth of kitchen appliances that could easily be replicated for $5k total otherwise. Does a better fridge/freezer really help you cook better? Do even most experienced cooks get noticeable benefit of a $10k range or oven?

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#106

Post by [deleted] »

corndoge wrote: post #38
sbarre wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rich people never want to acknowledge their luck, because it doesn't fit the "self-made" narrative. edit: to please the pedants, I should have said "many rich people", as to not imply "all". My fault.

Cynical but doesn't match my experience, plenty of rich people acknowledge luck

[deleted]

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#107

Post by steveBK123 »

shakow wrote: post #99
steveBK123 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair point. My numbers are probably off on everything now. Before the 2020s era inflation you could definitely pick up a mens one used for $2k, like a Datejust model for example. Likewise a $70k car is neither particularly rare or exotic now with how much the average car price has been pushed up by big trucks and EVs.

> Likewise a $70k car is neither particularly rare or exotic Just for the sake of nitpicking, but going back to the BMW example, you could get a well-optioned Z4 in this range, which I would argue is rather exotic and will make heads turn, if not very expensive.

You CAN get something rare/exotic for $70k these days.

However you can get a lot of pretty surprisingly run of the mill vehicles at that price range as well, especially for at truck or EV. Like a Ford F-150, Tesla Model 3/Y, entry level Mercedes or BMW electric car, even a Ford Mach E, etc.

The slowing inflation, high interest rates and collapse of the economy in the coming 6-18 months will probably wind some of that back.

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#108

Post by indiogrindio »

I agree with the overall argument of the article, but some of it is confusing in the point it's trying to make:

> In these studies, chimps are behaving more rationally than humans. There is no wasted motion to obtain the reward.

> Humans haven’t been successful because we are innovators. Rather, we are successful because we don’t think for ourselves, and save time and energy by copying others.

> In contrast, children will copy every single action, including the unnecessary ones.

Isn't the chimpanzee the one saving time/energy in this case since it's not engaging in superfluous activities and only doing what it's necessary for its goal? I was expecting the article to state that the point of human superfluous activity is that it allows for a greater range of experimentation (a superfluous activity might lead to an adjacent innovative/novel solution for a new goal that was outside of the original scope).

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#109

Post by doubled112 »

ehnto wrote: post #102
coryrc wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I figure GP's talking about gas trucks. We're talking working class people spending over a year's gross income on a truck, when in the past they'd be buying a "work truck" with a single bench seat, no A/C, and an AM radio.

I don't want to make assumptions, but it's my understanding that they're usually on finance which means they're paying much more than sticker price. I certainly don't know many middle class people with 70k in savings to throw around, either everyone is doing a lot better than they otherwise expose or there's easy money on the table. I think we'll see price corrections downward for cars over the next 5 years, as inter…

Of course people are financing them. Vehicles are expensive. I believe the average used car price is over $40K now here. Even an average used car was about $20K.

Let's stick to the truck, though. F-150s are everywhere.

If I head to the Ford Canada website, an F-150 XL (the cheap one) is $39K before you get started. A Platinum brings you up to $87K, and the Limited brings you up to $98K.

The website is definitely NOT including taxes, licensing fees, financing fees, interest, etc.

I couldn't imagine paying that for a work truck. The trades are fairly well payed, but to that extent?

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#110

Post by idiocrat »

helen___keller wrote: post #70
steveBK123 wrote: post #47

"An example from Ogilvy Vice Chairman Rory Sutherland: If you’re a top executive, turning up to work on a bicycle is a high-status activity because it was a choice and not a necessity. But if you work at Pizza Hut, turning up on a bike means you can’t afford a car." This tidbit reminds me of a similar anecdote (that my experience aligns with) re: the modern upper class that wearing a $2k Rolex or driving a $70k BMW i…

> wearing a $2k Rolex or driving a $70k BMW is frowned upon. But instead they have eccentric "hobbies" requiring $10ks of of equipment, inclusive of "needing" $10k viking stove/range, and $10k subzero fridge/freezer in your kitchen because you are a "foodie" […] Isn’t this conflating status signal with lifestyle? The wealthy have always enjoyed expensive lifestyles and hobbies. In and of itself, expensive hobby equip…

> The wealthy have always enjoyed expensive lifestyles and hobbies.

Sorry to jump in.

There is a 2003 documentary by the name "Born Rich".

This is about the children from the wealthy people and how they are coping with the boredom of being able (afford) to do anything.

Many are naturally isolated and invent obscure hobbies and life-styles not fitting their "wealthy statuses".

Not sure how it is changing in more responsible adulthood, when it is becoming their turn to manage the estate. I guess this is then mostly about turf-wars among relatives.

(edit: formatting)

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