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Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

robkhenderson.substack.com

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Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#21

Post by greggarious »

xiphias2 wrote: post #16
api wrote: post #7

I’m not sure it’s a deliberate form of counter signaling, but… I see a lot of people emulate the antisocial or neurotic traits of the highly successful based on the faulty premise that these are causal for their success. Will doing heroin make you a rock star? Might it be that Steve Jobs and Elon Musk succeeded not because of but in spite of some of their antisocial traits? Maybe you should emulate their work ethic a…

Elon Musk was reading books all the time when he was young...of course it will lead to even less social skills than what he would have had as he was growing up.

If you don’t read books when young it’ll be difficult to go to uni, and “reading books” isn’t particularly unique among gifted kids.

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#22

Post by ltbarcly3 »

082349872349872 wrote: post #15
abecedarius wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's signaling, like wearing expensive clothes. Countersignaling means dressing like a bum in high-class circles and getting accepted anyway. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signalling_(economics)

Maybe I'd been overthinking it? I had been considering "I have a high-paying job" as signalling, and "My pay doesn't really cover the essentials, but I do it for our country, don't you know" as counter-. Edit: and otoh I would consider "Boss is in shorts, t-shirt and sandals" as just plain signalling, because I grew up in a world (my favourite anecdote was working with a Hawai'ian VC who would classify meetings as "s…

You are under thinking it. Signalling is showing you have something high status (money, nice clothes, etc), countersignalling is refusing to show something to prove you don't need to.

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#23

Post by YurgenJurgensen »

082349872349872 wrote: post #15
abecedarius wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's signaling, like wearing expensive clothes. Countersignaling means dressing like a bum in high-class circles and getting accepted anyway. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signalling_(economics)

Maybe I'd been overthinking it? I had been considering "I have a high-paying job" as signalling, and "My pay doesn't really cover the essentials, but I do it for our country, don't you know" as counter-. Edit: and otoh I would consider "Boss is in shorts, t-shirt and sandals" as just plain signalling, because I grew up in a world (my favourite anecdote was working with a Hawai'ian VC who would classify meetings as "s…

Presumably the signal is actually "I'm independently wealthy, so I can afford to take this job that loses me money".

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#24

Post by roenxi »

082349872349872 wrote: post #2

An extreme example of affording to countersignal were the "smarter" british cavalry regiments, which purposefully set their mess dues significantly higher than the pay, thus keeping out the riffraff.

That isn't counter-signalling, that is gate-keeping.

Counter-signalling: Signalling that you are adopting a sub-optimal strategy.

Gate-keeping: Creating an environment that lower-class people can't survive in. This is more forceful.

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#26

Post by abecedarius »

082349872349872 wrote: post #15
abecedarius wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's signaling, like wearing expensive clothes. Countersignaling means dressing like a bum in high-class circles and getting accepted anyway. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signalling_(economics)

Maybe I'd been overthinking it? I had been considering "I have a high-paying job" as signalling, and "My pay doesn't really cover the essentials, but I do it for our country, don't you know" as counter-. Edit: and otoh I would consider "Boss is in shorts, t-shirt and sandals" as just plain signalling, because I grew up in a world (my favourite anecdote was working with a Hawai'ian VC who would classify meetings as "s…

I think we agree about the phenomena, it's just that the word "signaling" has a false lucidity -- it has an everyday meaning and a related technical meaning that's easy to overlook. The technical meaning is about an equilibrium in a game where "talk is cheap", so that your message would be discounted by observers unless some cost (not necessarily in money) is tied to it.

With countersignaling there's an extra level to the game where your message has the form "I have this quality over and above merely affording the first-level cost" -- now the cost you're paying is the risk of being taken for riff-raff. Those with more of that quality, whatever it is, have to be better at pulling that gambit off, for it to work as a countersignal.

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#27

Post by TrackerFF »

Maybe a bit OT:

The other day I read an interview with a local guy in his 20s that struck gold with crypto, he'd invest something like $20k, and turned it into $40M. He basically went all in on one alt-coin before the marked exploded late last year, and the coin went up 2000x.

When asked about it, he of course came up with a narrative that this wasn't just dumb luck. He had had worked hard for those $20k, and he had lost his shirt many times prior to this. But in the end, he was patting has own back and saying that it was his savviness which resulted in his newfound wealth. And if others were to follow his steps, they'd need to spend countless hours watching the charts and reading whitepapers.

He had now mostly exited from crypto, retiring from his "old life", and being a full-time investor (VC for startups).

Can you imagine if some newspaper interviewed a recent lottery winner, with the winner detailing how he'd planned it all along? But to the ignorant, it all sounds very impressive.

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#28

Post by bulbosaur123 »

The poorer you are, the more you are interested in appearing rich. Higher EV in that play allowing increased chances to mingle with rich class.

The richer you are, the more you are interested in appearing humble. Higher EV in signalling "money speaks, wealth whispers" message and appearing "down-to-earth" to win people over.

Very often it pays to do the opposite of what is expected from you.

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#29

Post by ealexhudson »

jerrygenser wrote: post #17
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #13

One of the best examples of counter-signaling was Kim Kardashian at the Met Gala. She wore a black dress that covered her from head to toe, including her face. It was kind of a statement that “even my silhouette is famous”.

Just looked this up. This is surprisingly similar to how Kanye (Ye?) appeared on the Lex Friedman podcast recently. Even though they are split, is Kim still taking hints or strategies they learned or developed together? I actually could barely recognize Ye in terms of silhouette, but could understand his voice on the podcast.

Since the Met Gala is in May, the causality must be the other direction..?

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#30

Post by sbarre »

TrackerFF wrote: post #27

Maybe a bit OT: The other day I read an interview with a local guy in his 20s that struck gold with crypto, he'd invest something like $20k, and turned it into $40M. He basically went all in on one alt-coin before the marked exploded late last year, and the coin went up 2000x. When asked about it, he of course came up with a narrative that this wasn't just dumb luck. He had had worked hard for those $20k, and he had…

Rich people never want to acknowledge their luck, because it doesn't fit the "self-made" narrative.

edit: to please the pedants, I should have said "many rich people", as to not imply "all". My fault.

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