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An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

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Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Austrian employers, like those in America, are currently having difficulty hiring people to take hard, poorly paid jobs Sounds like a signal from the market that they are not paying enough. One might argue about how social welfare programs and / or importing cheap labor distort the labor market; but it doesn’t change the fact that jobs are the dregs of the labor market.

What does distort mean? Penicillin distorts the growth of bacteria. This will sound like a crazy commie rant to some people, but the trick that the powerful have played on is all is to think there's some natural market condition that is had for us to influence.

Social welfare programs distort in the sense that it turns people who could be contributing to the economy into drags on the economy by becoming unemployed welfare recipients.

This matters because it leads to a generally lower quality of life.

Importation of cheap foreign labor distorts in the sense of reducing the wages of low-skilled native residents.

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't want work to be treated as a commodity, then you need to stop coupling it tightly to how you make your living (the problem being that we're not yet quite technologically ready to do that...). If work is so "meaning-giving and social", then people will presumably do it even if they don't have to do it to eat, and even if the boss isn't breathing down their necks.

I sort of disagree with that. Work can provide meaning if its entirely voluntary, but for many people the fact that it's necessary, sustaining and vital is part of what makes work meaningful. An important aspect of the value of work is that if you didn't do your work, there's real consequences to that. Otherwise very quickly you go from work to something that is more like a game or a hobby in nature. And while games…

So, the problem with that is that, if we ever did get to the point where work was not technologically necessary, I don't think I would want to be told "work or starve" in order to provide you with a feeling that your work was meaningful. I don't have a lot of truck with that concept of "meaning".

I guess you can get past commodification in the narrow sense with enough market and social restructuring, but I can't see how you can get what you're asking for here without forcing everybody else to work for no good reason other than to support your preference.

Not an immediate problem, of course...

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#163
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's meant as a stop gap not to ride out a temporary situation like a recession or depression, not a permanent perfect solution. But for example, if someone gets foreclosed on, up to some limit they can still reside with the pool, but perhaps now they're doing labor work for everyone, or they're being a child caretaker, or cooking etc.. ideally they have some trade skills to contribute. I agree that the global econom…

Sadly there is no evidence for any of what your are saying. I would think all super powerful people in history have contributed to someone's define without their own becoming inevitable. It sounds like how you wish he world to be, not how it is.

> someone's define without their own becoming inevitable.

Is there a typo in there? I'm not getting it.

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Austrian employers, like those in America, are currently having difficulty hiring people to take hard, poorly paid jobs Sounds like a signal from the market that they are not paying enough. One might argue about how social welfare programs and / or importing cheap labor distort the labor market; but it doesn’t change the fact that jobs are the dregs of the labor market.

What does distort mean? Penicillin distorts the growth of bacteria. This will sound like a crazy commie rant to some people, but the trick that the powerful have played on is all is to think there's some natural market condition that is had for us to influence.

Thats not the trick. The trick was and is underplaying the market power these guys have in specific labor segments because market power in labor can be a lot more localized than one would expect in certain situations and stuff like minimum wages give a tacit signal for what all the big employers in, for example, fast food should pay coordinating them like how a cartel would but without the illegal coordination meetings.

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#165
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand your willingness to attribute wrong behavior to the correct culprit. But, how does it come, that these procedures to get building permits have been slowed down/bureaucratized to the point that it almost seems intentional? Also, the anger is not about them intentionally shortening supply - it’s about them intentionally asking and taking the higher prices. Nobody forces them to take more than e.g. a 10% sh…

> how does it come, that these procedures to get building permits have been slowed down/bureaucratized to the point that it almost seems intentional? It is absolutely intentional. Those who already have serious realty want its value to go up. They don't want any new development nearby which would compete with their realty, or otherwise lower its market value due to becoming less exclusive. Completely incidentally, th…

I've heard it argued that this is inaccurate in most cases; if you relaxed the regulations, the value of the properties would actually go up because you could sell to developers to build multi-family housing (townhouses or apartments) on land currently used for single-family homes.

I'd also add that the financial angle is in my view sometimes overstated; a lot of people just like their neighbourhood as it is and wish it would stay exactly like that forever. And that's perfectly understandable, if unfair on all the people who didn't win the historical lottery and end up with a single-family house in a nice street in (say) Berkeley.

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The soviets also had the problem that they were an autocracy who had little regard for the conditions of their people. They were also huge . Community level programs like this can be much more functionally democratic and uplifting.

> The soviets also had the problem that they were an autocracy who had little regard for the conditions of their people. This is just false. In the USSR life expectancy went from 30 years in 1925 to 69 years in 1990[0]. On the other hand, in the US it started declining in 2015 without having recovered yet[1]. In the USSR, "In 1926, the literacy rate was 56.6 percent of the population. By 1937, according to census dat…

> In the USSR life expectancy went from 30 years in 1925 to 69 years in 1990[0]. On the other hand, in the US it started declining in 2015 without having recovered yet[1].

What a nonsensical comparison. Lol.

> I have yo ask you, what you do mean by "conditions of the people"?

Probably talking about the fact that the situation got so bad Gorbachev initiated such major reforms that the USSR collapsed. No biggie. Lol.

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#167
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Full employment never works. Famous example is the soviets. Neither can UBI be penciled into an actual economy. UBI would bankrupt the nation, so would a large scale job guarantee program as described. I am never surprised. When asked to put a dollar value on a program the overeducated go on bleeting about higher order non-sense. It's hard to take any of these academic exercises seriously. Especially when they spawn…

> UBI would bankrupt the nation, so would a large scale job guarantee program as described. > When asked to put a dollar value on a program the overeducated go on bleeting about higher order non-sense. Being overeducated, I'll take a shot: 6 million US unemployed x $15/hour x 2000 hours/year x 2 to cover benefits, SSI, Medicare, etc works out to 360 Billion. Which is about 1/4 of the defense department budget. A lot…

1/4 of the defense budget used to protect the entire world. If we didn't have to do that, I'd agree.

I'm gonna take a long shot and say your education did not cover that part of world history.

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#168
post #71
post #64

History has shown full employment does not work. The most famous example being communist countries such as the USSR. They achieved full employment, except that it was mostly useless labor. Sure, you have a job. But your job is to count buckets of nails by hand all day. When you're done with that you go back to the beginning and count them again. You'll get paid a pittance for your trouble. However, I would not call t…

Quoted post unavailable.

> Unfortunately for you that would remove the vast majority of people who could be tricked via Fox News to vote for the viewpoints this and your other (vile) comments espouse.

The Japanese are famous for leaving their elderly on mountains historically. Many societies see no purpose to invalids.

> they serve no economic value, are a burden to the economy and so forth.

Agree. Though I don't watch fox news I'm not as confused about my political beliefs as you are about your gender. I'd recommend therapy. My beliefs are only vile because your frame of references is clouded by living in a bohemian mega city.

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Austrian employers, like those in America, are currently having difficulty hiring people to take hard, poorly paid jobs Sounds like a signal from the market that they are not paying enough. One might argue about how social welfare programs and / or importing cheap labor distort the labor market; but it doesn’t change the fact that jobs are the dregs of the labor market.

What does distort mean? Penicillin distorts the growth of bacteria. This will sound like a crazy commie rant to some people, but the trick that the powerful have played on is all is to think there's some natural market condition that is had for us to influence.

Whatever doesn't suit our cartels agenda is considered as a distortion.

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#170

Wait a second, if somebody asks an overinflated way-over productivity wage for cleaning toilets because of a supply shortage, this is considered being unethical and "unwilling to do the dirty work, while receiving benefits", but asking a way way overinflated price for housing because of a supply shortage is considered good and healthy for the market and drives investment without shaming the investors for receiving un…

> if somebody asks an overinflated way-over productivity wage for cleaning toilets because of a supply shortage, this is considered being unethical and "unwilling to do the dirty work, while receiving benefits", but asking a way way overinflated price for housing because of a supply shortage is considered good and healthy for the market and drives investment without shaming the investors for receiving undue housing benefits?

The clear difference is who bears the cost of demanding an artificially high price. If you're asking an overinflated wage as a ploy to stay on unemployment, or to keep a low-effort make-work job, who bears the cost of that decision? Not the worker! By shunning gainful employment, he chooses to remain on the dole, for his own benefit and to the detriment of his neighbors--who are paying his bills. He also short-changes society, which could benefit from his employment through taxes paid, and by virtue of his doing work that's actually in demand. So it's unethical for this person to take money out of his neighbors' pockets (many of whom do dirty work) because he's too good to do his fair share.

The person who chooses to try to sell their house for a high price doesn't gain anything by setting too-high a price--quite the opposite! Every month they don't sell the property, they're paying the mortgage and insurance. So it's not unethical to set an artificially high price, since the seller is the one who pays in the end. If someone actually buys the house, then I'm not sure that you could say that the price was artificially high--the buying of the house indicates that the price was right.

> Why do we yell at people artificially shortening toilet cleaner supply, while at the same time not yelling at developers for artificially shortening housing supply?

I'm not really sure what you mean here.

> Looks like it is not about an economic argument after all. Seems like it’s again a pattern of abusing less privileged, weaker, less defensible people.

This sort of self-righteous hysteria has no place on HN. Fiscal conservatives are not ghouls who abhor the poor and seek to harm them. The fact that you don't know or don't understand the economic argument doesn't mean there is no economic argument--it means you are uninformed. If you're actually interested in an introduction to the economic arguments underpinning fiscal conservatism, try reading "Economics in One Lesson" by Henry Hazlitt.

> Shaming them for what they naturally and humanly want - and which is the same what the privileged naturally want: To be able to say no, when they want to say no.

They're being shamed for the extraordinarily selfish expectation that society should pay 30K/year to save them from doing a yucky job. How many taxpayers does it take to fund this guy's make-work job? Based on a quick google search, you'd probably have to take every penny of tax revenue raised from 3-4 middle-class families. That's 4 families that forewent 30% of their income--and for what? So that one dude can save face? This is an egregious waste of resources and a giant middle-finger to the working class people who fund the Austrian welfare state.

> How did we start to listen to the voice of the psychopaths which want to divide us?

I find this to be hysterical in every sense of the word.

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