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An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

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Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#21

Post by kaesar14 »

maerF0x0 wrote: post #13
mgrthrow wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the classic answer to the classic question about anarchy: "who will do the unpleasant, demeaning work?" "We only think it's unpleasant because we make it unpleasant. We can have clean, well lit factories. We just have to prioritize making that work more pleasant."

Also perhaps the least dignified work should be the highest paid? Unfortunately America has a sort of wealth cult going on that we dignify (and deify) those who are already wealthy.

The unfortunate reality is because these jobs are plentiful and easy to do (NOT saying they aren’t demanding, just that they don’t require advanced training) it incentivizes a race to the bottom in terms of wages - but we should do better as a society in guaranteeing high working standards and wages through regulation instead.

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#22

Post by brntsllvn »

gumby wrote: post #9
brntsllvn wrote: post #2

> Work is a source of structure, esteem, and motivation, and its disappearance can lead to depression, anxiety, addiction, and interpersonal turmoil. So true

That’s why, as we strive towards the morally necessary system of universal unemployment (with robots doing all the work) we will need for the robots to create jobs for those who want them (and to convince the job holders of the importance of these ”jobs“). I mean this in all seriousness and am only sorry that I’m unkikely to live long enough to enjoy this paradise. Of course I’m one of those who loves to work.

I also love work. It's such a great way to meet and work with other people. Crucial for mental health.

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#23

Post by 988747 »

pfortuny wrote: post #18
gumby wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s why, as we strive towards the morally necessary system of universal unemployment (with robots doing all the work) we will need for the robots to create jobs for those who want them (and to convince the job holders of the importance of these ”jobs“). I mean this in all seriousness and am only sorry that I’m unkikely to live long enough to enjoy this paradise. Of course I’m one of those who loves to work.

Work is not production or service by itself. This is something we all tend to forget. A bonsai is as much work as shining shoes.

No post body was provided.

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#24

Post by zozbot234 »

cocacola1 wrote: post #3

These two paragraphs in particular stuck out to me: > Critics of labor-market programs such as the Job Guarantee argue that they enable precisely this sort of choice—they make it easier to decline work that one doesn’t like. One program participant in his thirties told me that, while on unemployment benefits, he’d been offered a job cleaning toilets at a gas station; he’d decided that he didn’t want “that sort of job…

The criticism has some merit if the carpentry job was subsidized by the government whilst the toilet cleaning was not. Why should the latter be less deserving of a subsidy than the former? Ultimately, established social programs such as the EITC are intended to address this in a comprehensive, neutral way.

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#25

Post by skybrian »

maerF0x0 wrote: post #11

One idea I've toyed with is that unemployment is actually a societal refusal to help eachother. Yes we all need sustenance, but consider something like this If I'm laid off I can choose to still program. If I don't my time might simply be wasted (eg on videogames, netflix, or even job applications). But I can also choose to continue to program. Maybe by helping local businesses, contributing to FOSS etc. While I unde…

One difficulty is that many societies are very individualistic. People are isolated. It's not enough to say that your skills are valuable in the abstract. There needs to be work that's obviously worth doing, and this requires either demonstrated demand or a leap of faith.

This is fairly unlikely for someone who is depressed. Enthusiasm is very important and often in short supply.

Also, entitled customers will repel volunteer labor. Being paid is in part compensation for putting up with annoying strangers.

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#26

Post by odiroot »

In communist Poland (probably whole Warsaw Pact), not only were they guaranteed, there was an obligation to work. You could go to jail if you avoided work.

This created a somehow funny effect, were many just did the absolute minimum on the job.

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#27

Post by AtlasBarfed »

brntsllvn wrote: post #2

> Work is a source of structure, esteem, and motivation, and its disappearance can lead to depression, anxiety, addiction, and interpersonal turmoil. So true

I don't think retired people are overloaded with depression, anxiety, addiction, and interpersonal turmoil.

The fact that the lack of work / ability to sustain yourself leads to those things: those states of mind reflect the literal existential insecurity you must deal with.

Because having a really shitty job that is just slightly less insecure kinda leads to the same thing.

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#28

Post by lesam »

kaesar14 wrote: post #21
maerF0x0 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also perhaps the least dignified work should be the highest paid? Unfortunately America has a sort of wealth cult going on that we dignify (and deify) those who are already wealthy.

The unfortunate reality is because these jobs are plentiful and easy to do (NOT saying they aren’t demanding, just that they don’t require advanced training) it incentivizes a race to the bottom in terms of wages - but we should do better as a society in guaranteeing high working standards and wages through regulation instead.

If there was an alternative in the form of a guaranteed not-terrible job at minimum wage, wouldn’t that necessarily raise wages (or maybe working conditions) for currently terrible jobs?

Giving people a real choice seems easier than regulating every possible kind of job.

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#29

Post by pfisherman »

cocacola1 wrote: post #3

These two paragraphs in particular stuck out to me: > Critics of labor-market programs such as the Job Guarantee argue that they enable precisely this sort of choice—they make it easier to decline work that one doesn’t like. One program participant in his thirties told me that, while on unemployment benefits, he’d been offered a job cleaning toilets at a gas station; he’d decided that he didn’t want “that sort of job…

> Austrian employers, like those in America, are currently having difficulty hiring people to take hard, poorly paid jobs

Sounds like a signal from the market that they are not paying enough. One might argue about how social welfare programs and / or importing cheap labor distort the labor market; but it doesn’t change the fact that jobs are the dregs of the labor market.

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#30

Post by jemmyw »

The way I see it is competition. The government in a particular place sees that wages and conditions are poor so they offer guaranteed jobs with better wages and conditions - now companies have to compete for their workers. And if that sounds like a tax payer burden, consider that low wage workers tend to be net tax beneficiaries their whole lives, it probably saves the state money long term. You just get to exchange higher priced goods and services for lower tax (or more tax services).
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