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An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

newyorker.com

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Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#11

Post by maerF0x0 »

One idea I've toyed with is that unemployment is actually a societal refusal to help eachother. Yes we all need sustenance, but consider something like this

If I'm laid off I can choose to still program. If I don't my time might simply be wasted (eg on videogames, netflix, or even job applications). But I can also choose to continue to program. Maybe by helping local businesses, contributing to FOSS etc. While I understand the near impossibility of it all, but we actually could continue to have lots of good things so long as folks refuse to stop working even if told they're no longer employed.

Obviously this fails the moment some unit in the chain refuses to participate, but I think in small ways it can actually blunt the pain felt in recessions/depressions by creating small communes of collusion amongst your social circle. You collude together to ensure that eachother gets what they need, at least amongst the valuable skills in the circle.

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#12

Post by toomuchtodo »

maerF0x0 wrote: post #11

One idea I've toyed with is that unemployment is actually a societal refusal to help eachother. Yes we all need sustenance, but consider something like this If I'm laid off I can choose to still program. If I don't my time might simply be wasted (eg on videogames, netflix, or even job applications). But I can also choose to continue to program. Maybe by helping local businesses, contributing to FOSS etc. While I unde…

How do they pay for food, housing, and healthcare in this model?

A family member who is retired performs volunteer work (adjacent industry to what they did while employed) because their Social Security comfortably covers all of their expenses (and Medicare covers their healthcare). Without these age tested basic income and benefits (and me providing no cost housing), this would not be an option. They would be toiling in a bullshit job.

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#13

Post by maerF0x0 »

mgrthrow wrote: post #7
cocacola1 wrote: post #3

These two paragraphs in particular stuck out to me: > Critics of labor-market programs such as the Job Guarantee argue that they enable precisely this sort of choice—they make it easier to decline work that one doesn’t like. One program participant in his thirties told me that, while on unemployment benefits, he’d been offered a job cleaning toilets at a gas station; he’d decided that he didn’t want “that sort of job…

This is the classic answer to the classic question about anarchy: "who will do the unpleasant, demeaning work?" "We only think it's unpleasant because we make it unpleasant. We can have clean, well lit factories. We just have to prioritize making that work more pleasant."

Also perhaps the least dignified work should be the highest paid? Unfortunately America has a sort of wealth cult going on that we dignify (and deify) those who are already wealthy.

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#15

Post by Spooky23 »

cocacola1 wrote: post #3

These two paragraphs in particular stuck out to me: > Critics of labor-market programs such as the Job Guarantee argue that they enable precisely this sort of choice—they make it easier to decline work that one doesn’t like. One program participant in his thirties told me that, while on unemployment benefits, he’d been offered a job cleaning toilets at a gas station; he’d decided that he didn’t want “that sort of job…

In general, there’s a scratch for every itch. There’s no dishonor in cleaning toilets, but if you’re aspiring to be a carpenter, it’s not an optimal choice.

The manipulative behavior around hours and time off traps people in jobs and makes them “dirty jobs”.

I have a high fulutin’ tech gig, but I worked on farms and in retail in high school and college. The laws don’t protect workers, and the people who were working in those jobs for a living were beaten down and exploited because the employers could.

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#17

Post by maerF0x0 »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #12
maerF0x0 wrote: post #11

One idea I've toyed with is that unemployment is actually a societal refusal to help eachother. Yes we all need sustenance, but consider something like this If I'm laid off I can choose to still program. If I don't my time might simply be wasted (eg on videogames, netflix, or even job applications). But I can also choose to continue to program. Maybe by helping local businesses, contributing to FOSS etc. While I unde…

How do they pay for food, housing, and healthcare in this model? A family member who is retired performs volunteer work (adjacent industry to what they did while employed) because their Social Security comfortably covers all of their expenses (and Medicare covers their healthcare). Without these age tested basic income and benefits (and me providing no cost housing), this would not be an option. They would be toiling…

It's meant as a stop gap not to ride out a temporary situation like a recession or depression, not a permanent perfect solution.

But for example, if someone gets foreclosed on, up to some limit they can still reside with the pool, but perhaps now they're doing labor work for everyone, or they're being a child caretaker, or cooking etc.. ideally they have some trade skills to contribute.

I agree that the global economy and contemporary life has become sufficiently complex that it would not just be a non-change, but my point is kind like why do we have so many homeless families being kicked out, only for the house to sit empty (often rapidly depreciating for lack of maintenance) etc, sometimes its about seeing that if you contribute to the decline, your own decline becomes inevitable.

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#18

Post by pfortuny »

gumby wrote: post #9
brntsllvn wrote: post #2

> Work is a source of structure, esteem, and motivation, and its disappearance can lead to depression, anxiety, addiction, and interpersonal turmoil. So true

That’s why, as we strive towards the morally necessary system of universal unemployment (with robots doing all the work) we will need for the robots to create jobs for those who want them (and to convince the job holders of the importance of these ”jobs“). I mean this in all seriousness and am only sorry that I’m unkikely to live long enough to enjoy this paradise. Of course I’m one of those who loves to work.

Work is not production or service by itself. This is something we all tend to forget.

A bonsai is as much work as shining shoes.

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#19

Post by maerF0x0 »

skybrian wrote: post #16

It seems like this sort of thing will make more sense in rural areas with a low cost of living, like where they tried this? If so that's fine. Programs don't need to be universal to work well.

> Programs don't need to be universal to work well.

Love this attitude! So often on HN we see responses like "It doesnt work in , because " ... To which it seems so obvious like "then dont do it in that case?"

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#20

Post by thriftwy »

mgrthrow wrote: post #10
thriftwy wrote: post #6

In Soviet Union, they were. Among other things, universal employment shown to do the same as no employment: a lot of people binge drinking and not caring to do anything useful with their life. Work ethic problems surfaced in a bad way.

The soviets also had the problem that they were an autocracy who had little regard for the conditions of their people. They were also huge . Community level programs like this can be much more functionally democratic and uplifting.

Late Soviet communities mostly ran themselves within the existing law/power frameworks. Soviet society indeed had comparatively little regard for the conditions of people, but it is more of a cultural problem, and not an unique one.
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