An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed • Hacker News Board

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#51

Post by Hizonner » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 7:13 PM UTC

gumby wrote: post #9

brntsllvn wrote: post #2

> Work is a source of structure, esteem, and motivation, and its disappearance can lead to depression, anxiety, addiction, and interpersonal turmoil. So true

That’s why, as we strive towards the morally necessary system of universal unemployment (with robots doing all the work) we will need for the robots to create jobs for those who want them (and to convince the job holders of the importance of these ”jobs“). I mean this in all seriousness and am only sorry that I’m unkikely to live long enough to enjoy this paradise. Of course I’m one of those who loves to work.

Pretty sure the only way a robot is going to convince me that obvious makework is important is to do a lobotomy. Which I'd kind of prefer not to have.

Maybe people should get over the idea that work should be their source of worth. Which I suspect they will manage to do within a generation or so.

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#52

Post by luckylion » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 7:17 PM UTC

pfisherman wrote: post #29

cocacola1 wrote: post #3

These two paragraphs in particular stuck out to me: > Critics of labor-market programs such as the Job Guarantee argue that they enable precisely this sort of choice—they make it easier to decline work that one doesn’t like. One program participant in his thirties told me that, while on unemployment benefits, he’d been offered a job cleaning toilets at a gas station; he’d decided that he didn’t want “that sort of job…

> Austrian employers, like those in America, are currently having difficulty hiring people to take hard, poorly paid jobs Sounds like a signal from the market that they are not paying enough. One might argue about how social welfare programs and / or importing cheap labor distort the labor market; but it doesn’t change the fact that jobs are the dregs of the labor market.

It is that signal, but are we ready to pay everyone more, even for low-skill jobs? How much more is everyone willing to pay for groceries? How much more for health care?

For most people here, that won't matter, because paying 50% more for groceries would barely be noticeable, and neither would 50% more for health care be. But for society at large, that would kill many lifestyles.

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#53

Post by Hizonner » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 7:19 PM UTC

brntsllvn wrote: post #22

gumby wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s why, as we strive towards the morally necessary system of universal unemployment (with robots doing all the work) we will need for the robots to create jobs for those who want them (and to convince the job holders of the importance of these ”jobs“). I mean this in all seriousness and am only sorry that I’m unkikely to live long enough to enjoy this paradise. Of course I’m one of those who loves to work.

I also love work. It's such a great way to meet and work with other people. Crucial for mental health.

Nobody's ever going to STOP you, you realize...

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#54

Post by oraetlabora » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 7:19 PM UTC

dukeofdoom wrote: post #8

[flagged]

nah, that was a different program.

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#55

Post by arglebargle123 » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 7:21 PM UTC

burritas wrote: post #48

guerrilla wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is why nobody should be in such a weak position. It's exploitation pure and simple.

I don't disagree that it's exploitation, but I think you obscure a very complex problem with "nobody should be in such a weak position". I'm not sure any economic or legal arrangement could do away with weak positions like that entirely.

UBI would go a long way towards pulling the very poor up out of the cycle of "I'll take whichever bad choice is least bad right now because I'm desperate."

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#56

Post by pjmorris » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 7:23 PM UTC

Job guarantees make more sense to me than UBI; the government only has to pay for those who aren't employed elsewhere while it still sets a floor for the entire economy about how bad a job can be, squeezing out jobs that are worse than the JG jobs. But I'm still collecting facts and quite open to being wrong. On my list to read: 'The case for a job guarantee', Tcherneva.

[0] 'http://pavlina-tcherneva.net/the-case-for-a-job-guarantee/'

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#57

Post by Hizonner » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 7:23 PM UTC

Barrin92 wrote: post #35

I think these programs are very positive. One thing that worries me today is the reductive way we talk about work often. On the one hand there's the "just give them cash, let the market figure it out" aspect that just reduces work to a commodity, on the other there's the 'all work is terrible' mentality. Oddly enough both have a sort of similar disregard for work in a way. There's really a lack of discussion about th…

If you don't want work to be treated as a commodity, then you need to stop coupling it tightly to how you make your living (the problem being that we're not yet quite technologically ready to do that...).

If work is so "meaning-giving and social", then people will presumably do it even if they don't have to do it to eat, and even if the boss isn't breathing down their necks.

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#58

Post by kmonsen » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 7:24 PM UTC

maerF0x0 wrote: post #17

toomuchtodo wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do they pay for food, housing, and healthcare in this model? A family member who is retired performs volunteer work (adjacent industry to what they did while employed) because their Social Security comfortably covers all of their expenses (and Medicare covers their healthcare). Without these age tested basic income and benefits (and me providing no cost housing), this would not be an option. They would be toiling…

It's meant as a stop gap not to ride out a temporary situation like a recession or depression, not a permanent perfect solution. But for example, if someone gets foreclosed on, up to some limit they can still reside with the pool, but perhaps now they're doing labor work for everyone, or they're being a child caretaker, or cooking etc.. ideally they have some trade skills to contribute. I agree that the global econom…

Sadly there is no evidence for any of what your are saying. I would think all super powerful people in history have contributed to someone's define without their own becoming inevitable.

It sounds like how you wish he world to be, not how it is.

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#59

Post by 8note » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 7:24 PM UTC

thriftwy wrote: post #6

In Soviet Union, they were. Among other things, universal employment shown to do the same as no employment: a lot of people binge drinking and not caring to do anything useful with their life. Work ethic problems surfaced in a bad way.

Drinking got so bad in the US that the government have to set a prohibition on it. Before prohibition, was the US in no employment or universal employment?

I don't think there's a strong relationship to this, and the Soviet alcoholism came from something else -- maybe losing many family members or having been shipped far away from everyone you know by a totalitarian government.

Or, the soviets never had a prohibition to change up what people drink

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#60

Post by mgbmtl » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 7:25 PM UTC

luckylion wrote: post #52

pfisherman wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Austrian employers, like those in America, are currently having difficulty hiring people to take hard, poorly paid jobs Sounds like a signal from the market that they are not paying enough. One might argue about how social welfare programs and / or importing cheap labor distort the labor market; but it doesn’t change the fact that jobs are the dregs of the labor market.

It is that signal, but are we ready to pay everyone more, even for low-skill jobs? How much more is everyone willing to pay for groceries? How much more for health care? For most people here, that won't matter, because paying 50% more for groceries would barely be noticeable, and neither would 50% more for health care be. But for society at large, that would kill many lifestyles.

While many large corporations declare record profits, I doubt that the person cleaning the toilets is really a major issue.