It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness • Hacker News Board

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#241

Post by joenot443 » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 1:47 PM UTC

Macha wrote: post #123

funcDropShadow wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And they are absolutely sure that you need a physical modification to adapt to a socially constructed norm. And at the same time they demand medical procedures while denying that it is a medical condition, whose treatment needs to be studied with scientific rigor. Instead they say the affected persons know their best treatment. Just imagine applying that same approach to addicts.

Is it? Transmedicalists (those who belive sex reassignment is a required goal) are a minority in trans communities and "truscum" was created as a derogatory term for this attitude indicating its unpopularity. If you mean puberty blockers for trans youth rather than sex reassignment, they have much more support because of their non-permanent nature. We let many teenagers make decisions about things like tattoos and pi…

Puberty blockers being non-permanent is a misconception, it’s rather concerning seeing it presented otherwise.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#242

Post by air7 » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 1:47 PM UTC

This reminded me of the Dancing Plague[0] that happened in medieval Europe.

[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dancing_mania

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#243

Post by LudwigNagasena » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 1:48 PM UTC

ReactiveJelly wrote: post #209

LudwigNagasena wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What boggles my mind is that people who adamantly claim that all gender behavior is socially constructed are the ones who are the first to denounce the idea that you can learn to want to be another gender.

The trouble is, the Internet is bathroom stall graffiti. If I say "For me it's a choice" then it undermines the people for whom it is not a choice. Because most of the audience in the bathroom stall aren't doing research to put together a comprehensive understanding of gender, they're just reading what in front of them for that day, and then leaving. If I say gender can be learned, we can spend days bickering about w…

People have been saying "it's just the Internet" since 2007 or whenever Tumblr appeared. It's a tired defense. Such treatment of gender that makes people feel good but only makes sense on the superficial level permeates modern discourse and invades institutional structures deeper each day.

You cannot keep the society well-functioning by treating the law and social norms as a bathroom stall or as something that you should mindlessly follow without comprehensive understanding.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#244

Post by naasking » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 1:48 PM UTC

simplotek wrote: post #162

ccity88 wrote: post #33

What's interesting to me is that if we're able to accept the idea that mass social media-induced illness can be developed just by virtue of video watching TikTok or YouTube, then this opens new doors to examining the behaviour of other illnesses such as gender dysphoria that are statistically over represented. This is probably going to get downvoted to oblivion, because nobody wants to confront the idea that we can _…

> This is probably going to get downvoted to oblivion, because nobody wants to confront the idea that we can _learn_ to want to be another gender. But I think there's some interesting parallels to be observed here, and discounting that based on "moral virtue" or "denying hate speech" or whatever i'll be attacked with is just moving the target. I feel you're grossly misrepresenting the issue. It means nothing if you b…

> It means nothing if you believe people can be re-educated to cease to identify as a specific gender or repress their sexuality throughout their whole lives. That's completely irrelevant. You can also argue that you can re-educated men to be ok with being impotent or be bald or not need glasses, but somehow the conservative side of society is perfectly ok with having whole industries devoted to pumping out erectile disfuncion pills to circumvent natural health issues.

I don't understand this. The core problem with gender dysphoria is that you feel significant discomfort with your biological sex. If it were possible to legitimately "re-educate" oneself to not feel this discomfort, that would be considerably cheaper, less invasive and less problematic overall than trying to change one's sex. All surgery carries risk of death after all, and lifetime of hormone therapy is annoying to say the least.

Being bald is not just a feeling of discomfort with having no hair, it has real consequences. Baldness is generally considered to be less attractive, and attractiveness impacts career and dating prospects, for instance.

Being impotent also has real-world consequences. It impacts dating and also impacts your ability to conceive.

Arguably, being trans also has real-world consequences as well, so if a solution became available that could eliminate the gender dysphoria without changing your sex, I would be very surprised if plenty of trans people wouldn't choose that option, and not just because of social stigma.

The resistance to such a solution comes from two understandable directions: a) terrible gay conversion therapy that doesn't actually work, and b) the (mistaken) notion of mind-body dualism that many people internalize over their lives, that their identity, their mind, is separate from their body and has more primacy.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#245

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 1:48 PM UTC

rendall wrote: post #223

refurb wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For instance, I am a straight man, but when I was a child I sometimes stole my mother's lipstick and tried to put it on, or I would play with Barbie dolls. I wouldn't see trying on lipstick or playing with Barbie dolls as "exploring a gender identity" as neither of those are exclusive to one gender, even in a heteronormative world.

I dunno. My social set would never discourage a child from this at all. However, of those of us who had children, only one (out of, like 50+ children in our extended set) was gender non-conforming boy at 3 and liked to wear girl's clothes and play with dolls.

[deleted]

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#246

Post by dahfizz » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 1:49 PM UTC

jasonlotito wrote: post #212

xd wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a parent I have no idea what you are trying to say with this idea of pushing "heteronormativity" - I don't and don't know any parents that push anything sexual let alone encouraging kids to explore sexuality .. they are kids and will be kids until they mature and begin to feel the urge to explore. This normalising of sexualising of children is abhorrent. Edit: the voting on this comment is crazy.. the number of HN…

Heteronormativity isn’t sexualizing anything. The only person talking about sexualizing children is you. The voting on your comment is crazy because your ignorance on the topic is showing and it’s dangerous and insulting. Educate yourself.

Read bognition's comment. They literally say that kids are "empowered to explore their sexuality".

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#247

Post by mschuster91 » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 1:49 PM UTC

mrpopo wrote: post #219

mschuster91 wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> then this opens new doors to examining the behaviour of other illnesses such as gender dysphoria that are statistically over represented. This is probably going to get downvoted to oblivion, because nobody wants to confront the idea that we can _learn_ to want to be another gender. It's very, very simple. There always have been about 10% of people who are left-handed - but for a time in history, teachers and societ…

There's no denying that gender dysphoria exists and has always existed. OP made the claim that it might be statistically over-represented. Looking at the Hijra example, it looks like the Hijra demographics are around 0.5-1% of the population. In the latest polls [0], the proportion of Gen Z that identify as transgender is over 2%. Is there repression/stigma in South Asia keeping some people in the closet? Is the cult…

And what the fuck would be the problem if GenZ had an "over-representation" of LGBT?!

We don't live in the dark ages, almost all Western constitutions have some sort of "freedom of expression" on their books. Just let people live their lifes however they want to do it, as long as they don't harm anybody. Trans people or kissing gays on the street don't harm anyone but the feelings of some poor Conservatives who are secretly in the closet and envious about the freedom today's youth has.

Just look how many of the loud pearl clutching Conservatives turned out to be gay or adulterous. It's nothing but projection and pure envy.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#248

Post by dahfizz » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 1:52 PM UTC

red_admiral wrote: post #225

largepeepee wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>For the last several decades society put massive pressure on kids to conform to heteronormativity. Only decades? You mean for all of history, where there are distinct roles mostly because of anatomy. In fact, it was only in recent decades with birth control that was there even an option for most women to take a different role for extended periods. I'll say the opposite is true, the last several decades did a great j…

I think it's a bit more complicated than that. As far as "all of history" goes, ancient Greece for example tolerated a particular kind of "homosexuality", but not one we should try and emulate - it matched neither of two conditions in "consenting adults", for example. While it's true that few if any societies other than "modern Western" would score as high as ours on Stonewall's diversity index, there were definitely…

You make a case that gender norms have changed over time, not that there were no gender norms in the past.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#249

Post by denton-scratch » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 1:52 PM UTC

cshimmin wrote: post #206

api wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bring this one up every time someone brings up Chesterton's Fence arguments about stuff like this. Why was left handedness considered taboo and evil? Do we need to figure out a legitimate reason for this before we can remove the fence? Could there possibly be a legitimate reason for something that clearly absurd?

No comment about Chesterton's Fence but I have heard (but never confirmed!) one reason for left-handed stigma is to do with hygiene. The idea is that before modern hygienic standards (e.g. sinks with soap in every bathroom/kitchen), the left hand was reserved for "dirty work" (we are also considering a time before toilet paper...). So for example when you reach out to shake someone's hand, it would be rude to use the…

Your right hand is your sword hand; by offering to shake hands, you demonstrate that you are not about to run your counterparty through.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#250

Post by denton-scratch » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 1:53 PM UTC

actionfromafar wrote: post #218

mc32 wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, there were actual cases of it, but it was exaggerated in the media. Just as the media makes it out like the next stop by a cop could end up in an execution if you’re not the same ethnicity as the cop. It’s still rather rare, or at least not happening at the rate the media portrays it.

Yeah, but the ethnicity of cops is blue.

Why can't blue men sing the whites?