It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness • Hacker News Board

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#161

Post by ReactiveJelly » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 1:06 PM UTC

ccity88 wrote: post #33

What's interesting to me is that if we're able to accept the idea that mass social media-induced illness can be developed just by virtue of video watching TikTok or YouTube, then this opens new doors to examining the behaviour of other illnesses such as gender dysphoria that are statistically over represented. This is probably going to get downvoted to oblivion, because nobody wants to confront the idea that we can _…

You're already getting swamped but I wanna take this bit in good faith:

> illnesses such as gender dysphoria that are statistically over represented

If it was true that gender dysphoria had a major "social contagion" component, what would you want to do about that?

Censor speech so children can't discuss gender? Like how some people think censor sex ed was a treatment for teen pregnancy?

Put up bureaucratic barriers to transition, at the cost of hurting people who really are transgender?

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#162

Post by simplotek » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 1:06 PM UTC

ccity88 wrote: post #33

What's interesting to me is that if we're able to accept the idea that mass social media-induced illness can be developed just by virtue of video watching TikTok or YouTube, then this opens new doors to examining the behaviour of other illnesses such as gender dysphoria that are statistically over represented. This is probably going to get downvoted to oblivion, because nobody wants to confront the idea that we can _…

> This is probably going to get downvoted to oblivion, because nobody wants to confront the idea that we can _learn_ to want to be another gender. But I think there's some interesting parallels to be observed here, and discounting that based on "moral virtue" or "denying hate speech" or whatever i'll be attacked with is just moving the target.

I feel you're grossly misrepresenting the issue. It means nothing if you believe people can be re-educated to cease to identify as a specific gender or repress their sexuality throughout their whole lives. That's completely irrelevant. You can also argue that you can re-educated men to be ok with being impotent or be bald or not need glasses, but somehow the conservative side of society is perfectly ok with having whole industries devoted to pumping out erectile disfuncion pills to circumvent natural health issues.

So you have to ask yourself why do you feel it's ok to repress whole segments of society because they don't feel comfortable with who they are, while you are perfectly ok with other segments pulling nature's cheat codes to achieve the exact same thing.

This is exactly the point: the authoritarian motivation behind repressing minorities, and the hate speech that goes along with it.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#163

Post by maxbond » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 1:06 PM UTC

gadders wrote: post #95

maxbond wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate your being willing to speak your mind without hiding behind vaguery. We can risk a karma hit together. You are referring to a myth called "Rapid-Onset Gender Dysphoria," which has been debunked. Gender identity is not a socially transmitted pathology. I don't believe you meant this in a hateful way, but let me explain what the problem is with this idea. This is sophistry about how LGBTQ people should rem…

Debunked by whom? Happy to read a paper or two. I don't think at all that LGBTQ people "infect" people - that is your choice of words, not mine. But it seems strange to think that tourettes, anorexia, self-harming and even suicide can be socially transmitted but for this one specific condition (for which there is no medical test) it's impossible and has never happened.

I understand these are not the words you used, or necessarily ideas you hold; what I am describing is the role it plays in the wider rhetorical space. I should have made that more clear, it does look like I was calling you out for that. I'll see if I can edit it in a better way.

Recommending literature is a skill I am still working on; I know things about this or that, but I didn't keep a record of how I learned them, and it's been months or years now. The Wikipedia article has discussion of criticism which may be a good place to start. If you're interested in YouTube videos, there is a large community of trans people who discuss their experiences in the form of video essays. ContraPoints and Philosophy Tube are some of the best known; you may or may not appreciate their politics, that's not what I'm suggesting, but they have a lot of content about what it's like to be a trans person, why they're trans, how they became trans, etc. that's just very difficult information to come by any other way.

I appreciate your good faith and curious engagement with me.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#164

Post by mc32 » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 1:07 PM UTC

adolph wrote: post #158

api wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This brings to mind one of my rules about conservative panics: If laws against witchcraft are removed and/or witchcraft is destigmatized and then all the sudden there appears to be an explosion of witches, the explanation is probably not that hordes of people are adopting witchcraft. I'll leave it to the reader to guess the simplest and most likely explanation.

The Satanic panic is a moral panic consisting of over 12,000 unsubstantiated cases of Satanic ritual abuse (SRA, sometimes known as ritual abuse, ritualistic abuse, organized abuse, or sadistic ritual abuse) starting in the United States in the 1980s, spreading throughout many parts of the world by the late 1990s, and persisting today. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_panic

Well, there were actual cases of it, but it was exaggerated in the media.

Just as the media makes it out like the next stop by a cop could end up in an execution if you’re not the same ethnicity as the cop. It’s still rather rare, or at least not happening at the rate the media portrays it.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#165

Post by trelane » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 1:07 PM UTC

bigbillheck wrote: post #134

rendall wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> one of my rules about conservative panic... Rule implies that it applies to past conservative moral panics. Is there a past moral panic in which lots of formerly suppressed identities suddenly expressed themselves once the moral panic was over?

Left-handed people.

Most sinister[1] example

[1] See notes on etymology etc. at https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sinister

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#166

Post by naasking » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 1:08 PM UTC

ccity88 wrote: post #33

What's interesting to me is that if we're able to accept the idea that mass social media-induced illness can be developed just by virtue of video watching TikTok or YouTube, then this opens new doors to examining the behaviour of other illnesses such as gender dysphoria that are statistically over represented. This is probably going to get downvoted to oblivion, because nobody wants to confront the idea that we can _…

> then this opens new doors to examining the behaviour of other illnesses such as gender dysphoria that are statistically over represented

I don't think this is necessarily new. Anorexia seems to increase proportionally to public awareness of anorexia. It's not just that diagnosis actually improves, it literally appears to be a causal connection, as in, hospitalizations for health problems due to undereating increase dramatically after public awareness about anorexia increases in response to media coverage or public awareness campaigns. Pretty wild.

This was discussed in the book "Crazy Like Us: The Globalization of the American Psyche".

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#167

Post by brookst » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 1:08 PM UTC

rendall wrote: post #151

bognition wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counter hypothesis. For the last several decades society put massive pressure on kids to conform to heteronormativity. With these pressures lessening more and more people are feeling empowered to explore their sexuality. Social media is absolutely involved, but we really don't know what the base rate would be in a society devoid of this kind of pressure.

> For the last several decades society put massive pressure on kids to conform to heteronormativity This is patently untrue. Since the 60s, western society has been increasingly accomodating to the non-gender-conforming. Especially with the rise of the internet, people who once felt isolated with whatever made them different were able to find others like themselves.

I wouldn’t say it’s untrue, just incomplete. Kids who present as the “wrong” gender are still much more likely to be bullied by kids and emotionally abused by parents.

But that isn’t a new thing in the past few decades, and indeed it does seem to be getting better.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#168

Post by throwaway049 » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 1:08 PM UTC

bognition wrote: post #54

ccity88 wrote: post #33

What's interesting to me is that if we're able to accept the idea that mass social media-induced illness can be developed just by virtue of video watching TikTok or YouTube, then this opens new doors to examining the behaviour of other illnesses such as gender dysphoria that are statistically over represented. This is probably going to get downvoted to oblivion, because nobody wants to confront the idea that we can _…

Counter hypothesis. For the last several decades society put massive pressure on kids to conform to heteronormativity. With these pressures lessening more and more people are feeling empowered to explore their sexuality. Social media is absolutely involved, but we really don't know what the base rate would be in a society devoid of this kind of pressure.

'The last several decades' is an odd specification. Are you saying there was a point in the quite recent past when this was different?

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#169

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 1:09 PM UTC

simiones wrote: post #147

LudwigNagasena wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What boggles my mind is that people who adamantly claim that all gender behavior is socially constructed are the ones who are the first to denounce the idea that you can learn to want to be another gender.

I don't think that happens too often. The problem is that there are at least two different and often opposing currents in pro-trans movements. One is from the "gender is a social construct" post-modernist side, which views the very idea that people are either men or women with some suspicion, and leads to concepts such as gender fluidity, non-binary identities, and the idea that maybe young kids should not be gendere…

[deleted]

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#170

Post by smeej » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 1:09 PM UTC

Macha wrote: post #123

funcDropShadow wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And they are absolutely sure that you need a physical modification to adapt to a socially constructed norm. And at the same time they demand medical procedures while denying that it is a medical condition, whose treatment needs to be studied with scientific rigor. Instead they say the affected persons know their best treatment. Just imagine applying that same approach to addicts.

Is it? Transmedicalists (those who belive sex reassignment is a required goal) are a minority in trans communities and "truscum" was created as a derogatory term for this attitude indicating its unpopularity. If you mean puberty blockers for trans youth rather than sex reassignment, they have much more support because of their non-permanent nature. We let many teenagers make decisions about things like tattoos and pi…

There's still a significant ave gap between these two populations, though. Tattoos and piercings can be obtained by 16-18yos without parental consent, but to be effective, puberty blockers need to start near or before the beginning of puberty, when children are usually 10-14 years old.

We may not be talking about many years by raw count, but as a percentage of the total lifespan of those involved, the first group is ~50% older than the second.