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TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

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Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#381

Post by coredog64 »

deltaseventhree wrote: post #363
galangalalgol wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After flooding took out most of the world's magnetic hard drive manufacturing capacity, it seemed clear that absolute efficiency in the immediate sense was the enemy of a robust long term manufacturer. I'm not sure why human v human threats are being heeded when nature v human ones were not, but diversifying your locations absolutely makes sense. There are some geographic constraints to where locating fabs make sense…

Vietnam, Korea, many parts of Asia. The US is a arbitrary choice. It is done because of the shared rivalry the US has with Taiwan against China.

From a geopolitical standpoint, US investment in Vietnam’s manufacturing capability would put pressure on China. China is trying to move up the value chain with Vietnam already eating their lunch on the low end.

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#382

Post by deltaseventhree »

KerrAvon wrote: post #372
deltaseventhree wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Things change. As of right now the US can't compete. In the past the US could compete, but that doesn't speak to the status quo. In the future the US may change but this is unknown. It may very well be the US will never recover. This is a realistic possibility. Either way the status quo is that the US is currently inferior to Asia in terms of semiconductors.

Well, that is certainly the Chinese government's take on things. Your posts suggest that the US should just give up and let Asia -- more specifically China -- dominate semiconductors forever because US workers are lazy, fat, and stupid. Am I characterizing your position correctly?

No. My posts suggest none of that.

I am simply stating the truth. It is from the perspective of a tsmc shareholder not a patriotic American who wants to beat china for no other reason then being the best.

As a tsmc shareholder one part of your post is correct. US workers are unfortunately lazier and slower and more expensive. Not necessarily stupider. You characterized this part of my position partially correctly.

As for what the US should or should not do, I never commented on that. Your patriotism and defensiveness specifically injected rivalry into your response. I literally have no opinion on what Taiwan or China or the US should do. I am neutral on that front.

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#383

Post by deltaseventhree »

coredog64 wrote: post #375
deltaseventhree wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Things change. As of right now the US can't compete. In the past the US could compete, but that doesn't speak to the status quo. In the future the US may change but this is unknown. It may very well be the US will never recover. This is a realistic possibility. Either way the status quo is that the US is currently inferior to Asia in terms of semiconductors.

IBM and Intel are competitive with TSMC and Samsung when it comes to ability to cram transistors onto wafers. This idea that only Taiwan/TSMC knows how to fab is light years from reality.

Well that wasn't my idea? You simply assumed that was my idea without me saying it.

The idea that tsmc and Samsung can fab better then the US is unequivocally true.

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#384

Post by coredog64 »

filoleg wrote: post #313
SkyMarshal wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By moving some of that capability offshore, that incentive is gone. China's main motivation isn't about controlling TSMC, that's just a useful side-objective if it comes to pass. Their main motivations are: 1) break the first island chain barrier and gain a naval base with unhindered access to the Pacific, and 2) shut down a high-functioning Chinese democracy that is a constant reminder to the people of mainland Ch…

Perhaps it isn't about controlling TSMC, but control of TSMC would be a very strong leverage over the west. Not that it is the only or even the most powerful leverage China has over the west, but it is still a massive one, and it has quite a lot of second-order effects.

China wants to focus more of their economy on internal demand. Something like TSMC, which would allow them to fab CPUs and own more of the value chain in things like laptops and cellphones would help them reach that goal.

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#385

Post by mdp2021 »

mdp2021 wrote: post #182
huijzer wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdotal evidence, but I do know that my 12th gen Intel can burn through 10% of battery in 10 minutes. That is to say that Intel is doing really poorly in power consumption.

> power consumption It really depends on the model. I see, for example, Kaby Lake Y models with a TDP of 4.5W . Though, in general, yes, many report that Intel is not taking power consumption as a priority (which does not mean that they do not offer niche "ultra/extremely-low power" products).

Will the renegade snipers make their point explicit.

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#386

Post by BoiledCabbage »

vl wrote: post #360
FBISurveillance wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've read that TSMC fabs are filled with explosives to set off if China invades so they wouldn't get their hands on tech and equipment. I'm pretty certain that's true, given how important TSMC tech is.

Nothing will happen to TSMC fabs if invasion happens. In fact most likely they will operate during invasion without interruption. Seems unlikely? Right now Russian gas goes through pipeline in Ukraine to Europe. Either side miraculously avoided disabling it through entire war.

The difference is both sides want that gas to keep flowing (for the time being at least).

Both sides don't want China to take over the technology to produce state of the art chips and control the distribution of those chips. And in case of a war, no way is china continuing to sell those chips to the US defense dept. The profit is negligible compared to their strategic value. Different goals will produce a different result.

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#387

Post by gorjusborg »

deltaseventhree wrote: post #368
boc wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The US has more expensive workers who are overall worse at the job and don't have the expertise to be compete with the people in Taiwan. Putting the rest of your statement aside, this is a very silly thing to say. The United States invented the IC and started silicon age. Integrated circuits made in Silicon Valley were literally on the moon at the same time that Taiwan was still an incredibly poor country living un…

Things change. As of right now the US can't compete. In the past the US could compete, but that doesn't speak to the status quo. In the future the US may change but this is unknown. It may very well be the US will never recover. This is a realistic possibility. Either way the status quo is that the US is currently inferior to Asia in terms of semiconductors.

That may or may not be true, but making them is a prerequisite for improving.

Asian labor may be cheaper and better, but relying on resources with precarious ties to authoritarian regimes has its own cost.

Sometimes 'best' encompasses more than just bottom-line and functional metrics.

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#388

Post by macspoofing »

ask_b123 wrote: post #285
macspoofing wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>A $800 macbook has far better build quality than any $500 Windows laptop Took a peak at the apple store, there is no $800 Macbook for sale. So we're comparing, an older (used?) higher-end Macbook to a budget Windows laptop? Why not compare an older higher-end Windows laptop to an older Macbook? Why not compare a new $500 budget Windows laptop to a $500 used Macbook? >Its Windows that's the issue for me. Having too m…

> Took a peak at the apple store, there is no $800 Macbook for sale $849 https://www.apple.com/shop/refurbished/mac/macbook-air

Comparing a refurb Macbook to a budget Windows laptop doesn't really show that Apple devices are of "higher quality" - which was the argument OP was trying to make.

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#389

Post by gorjusborg »

deltaseventhree wrote: post #382
KerrAvon wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, that is certainly the Chinese government's take on things. Your posts suggest that the US should just give up and let Asia -- more specifically China -- dominate semiconductors forever because US workers are lazy, fat, and stupid. Am I characterizing your position correctly?

No. My posts suggest none of that. I am simply stating the truth. It is from the perspective of a tsmc shareholder not a patriotic American who wants to beat china for no other reason then being the best. As a tsmc shareholder one part of your post is correct. US workers are unfortunately lazier and slower and more expensive. Not necessarily stupider. You characterized this part of my position partially correctly. As…

> US workers are unfortunately lazier and slower and more expensive

Wow. At least you aren't hiding your nationalistic bias.

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#390

Post by coredog64 »

lkbm wrote: post #194
throwaway82028 wrote: post #183

Where in Arizona specifically? Have they even decided? Did the government decide to pay for the factory and enroll their for-profit prisoners to work for $0.10/per hour, and divert the remaining water supply to the factory? Arizona seems like a terrible choice for a chip factory, unless they've selected an area that gets natural water... and there aren't many.

Hmm, my understanding was that fabs needed an initial supply of water, but then could cycle that same water for a long time. A quick Google[0] suggests that they've only started doing this heavily pretty recently, but I'm guessing new fabs in Arizona will implement state of the art water-recycling. That said, the numbers in this article suggest that 98% recycling would drop usage to the equivalent of ~6000 homes, whi…

If they built the factory on what used to be farmland they’re probably at break even for water usage.
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