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TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

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Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#291

Post by pjc50 »

jackpeterfletch wrote: post #247
menshiki wrote: post #235

Great news for the US. Great news for Apple, AMD, and Nvidia. Not so good news for Taiwan. The fact that the whole tech world is dependent on chips produced in Hsinchu is a huge advantage for the safety of Taiwan. Moving the fabs and talent further away from the island will not benefit the people of Taiwan at all. TSMC with its global influence has been a huge factor for guaranteeing safety of the island and peace in…

Thats interesting. My initial thoughts on this came the from the opposite side in terms of Taiwans security. One of the major bounties for invading Taiwan would be in the acquisition and control of their chip manufacturing. Which - as you mention, the entire tech world is dependant on. By moving some of that capability offshore, that incentive is gone. Though I can see it from both sides.

Everyone is aware that this would be scorched earth, right? If the fabs somehow survive the initial wave of strategic bombing both the US and Taiwan have an interest in preventing them from falling into enemy hands. In addition, the US will then place China under a trade embargo. And that's assuming that the US doesn't actively engage PRC forces.

To say this would make the world worse off is a drastic understatement.

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#292

Post by coredog64 »

deltaseventhree wrote: post #271
menshiki wrote: post #235

Great news for the US. Great news for Apple, AMD, and Nvidia. Not so good news for Taiwan. The fact that the whole tech world is dependent on chips produced in Hsinchu is a huge advantage for the safety of Taiwan. Moving the fabs and talent further away from the island will not benefit the people of Taiwan at all. TSMC with its global influence has been a huge factor for guaranteeing safety of the island and peace in…

It is categorically NOT a huge win for the stock. This is all happening because of US subsidies. The US has more expensive workers who are overall worse at the job and don't have the expertise to be compete with the people in Taiwan. The subsidies only make this a viable option for political reasons. The decision to create a fab in Arizona is strictly speaking unprofitable and essentially a economically irrational mo…

> The US has more expensive workers who are overall worse at the job and don't have the expertise to be compete with the people in Taiwan.

GMAFB. Intel has several of their fabs in the Phoenix metro area, they’re another 3-5 major players in the area, and there’s a talent pipeline from the local University into these companies.

Intel’s problems aren’t an inability to fab, it’s an inability to translate their design language into the new, smaller process.

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#294

Post by judge2020 »

smoldesu wrote: post #230
d3ckard wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't want to start a fight, but honestly, I only ever hear those types of arguments from people who don't use Apple hardware. People who do, in large majority, do it for two reasons: - build quality; - it mostly just works.

Build quality, that's a riot. Here's a riddle for you: my $300 Thinkpad and $1,500 Macbook Pro each hit the concrete from waist height. Which laptop can I open up and keep using like nothing happened?

Build quality != resistance to drops. You can have a rugged, impervious laptop that will survive a drop from an airplane onto concrete, but if the keyboard flexes and mushes when you use it, that's not exactly 'good build quality'. Manufacturers optimize for different parts of the UX and it's valid for customers to pick which device they like based on how well the product does in whichever area they care about.

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#295

Post by SkyMarshal »

ecshafer wrote: post #264
jackpeterfletch wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats interesting. My initial thoughts on this came the from the opposite side in terms of Taiwans security. One of the major bounties for invading Taiwan would be in the acquisition and control of their chip manufacturing. Which - as you mention, the entire tech world is dependant on. By moving some of that capability offshore, that incentive is gone. Though I can see it from both sides.

China absolutely wants to be reunited with Taiwan. Taiwan is a constant reminder of the century of humiliation (Translated term that is basically China's term for Opium wars to WWII). Taiwan is an integral part of the Chinese nation and for nationalistic reasons, it would be an issue even if Taiwan had no other benefits.

> Taiwan is an integral part of the Chinese nation

No it isn't. China under the Communist Party has never ruled or controlled Taiwan (since 1949). Taiwan democratized, developed, and got wealthy first, completely independently of China. Taiwan has never in modern history been an integral part of China.

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#296

Post by yellow_lead »

pjc50 wrote: post #291
jackpeterfletch wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats interesting. My initial thoughts on this came the from the opposite side in terms of Taiwans security. One of the major bounties for invading Taiwan would be in the acquisition and control of their chip manufacturing. Which - as you mention, the entire tech world is dependant on. By moving some of that capability offshore, that incentive is gone. Though I can see it from both sides.

Everyone is aware that this would be scorched earth, right? If the fabs somehow survive the initial wave of strategic bombing both the US and Taiwan have an interest in preventing them from falling into enemy hands. In addition, the US will then place China under a trade embargo. And that's assuming that the US doesn't actively engage PRC forces. To say this would make the world worse off is a drastic understatement.

Exactly. And the TSMC chair said it best:

TSMC would be rendered "not operable," TSMC Chair Mark Liu said.

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#297

Post by LegitShady »

yucky wrote: post #274
LegitShady wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what are the alternatives?

Exactly what you're seeing. Move semiconductor industry out of Taiwan so then when China takes it, disruption is lessened.

the issue is "is it healthy for the country" which being taken over by china is not, so you aren't really addressing either the question I was responding to, or my question.

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#298

Post by SkyMarshal »

jackpeterfletch wrote: post #247
menshiki wrote: post #235

Great news for the US. Great news for Apple, AMD, and Nvidia. Not so good news for Taiwan. The fact that the whole tech world is dependent on chips produced in Hsinchu is a huge advantage for the safety of Taiwan. Moving the fabs and talent further away from the island will not benefit the people of Taiwan at all. TSMC with its global influence has been a huge factor for guaranteeing safety of the island and peace in…

Thats interesting. My initial thoughts on this came the from the opposite side in terms of Taiwans security. One of the major bounties for invading Taiwan would be in the acquisition and control of their chip manufacturing. Which - as you mention, the entire tech world is dependant on. By moving some of that capability offshore, that incentive is gone. Though I can see it from both sides.

> By moving some of that capability offshore, that incentive is gone.

China's main motivation isn't about controlling TSMC, that's just a useful side-objective if it comes to pass. Their main motivations are:

1) break the first island chain barrier and gain a naval base with unhindered access to the Pacific, and

2) shut down a high-functioning Chinese democracy that is a constant reminder to the people of mainland China that democracy works for Chinese people and that they don't actually need the CCP.

These are also the reasons the US and Taiwan's other allies like Japan will continue to defend the country even if it moves some chip production to safer locales.

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#300

Post by quantumwannabe »

deltaseventhree wrote: post #279
nailer wrote: post #7

I love how “we can’t make chips in the US anymore it’s impossible” was something we heard only a few years ago.

It's possible. With subsidies. The US is literally paying tsmc for this to even be viable. Tsmc is not coming here because it's an economically wise move. They are coming here knowing it's an economically irrational move. Politics is the reason for this move. It is not a clear cut win. Your post has the aroma of patriotism. Patriotism blinds us to harsh truths. Why do you love how people were wrong when they said we…

Your post has an enormous aroma of patriotism. Where were you when Taiwan was subsidizing TSMC? They were only able to outcompete Western fabs due to the enormous amount of government help they got in the early days. Those Taiwanese leaders sure were stupid to have invested in chip manufacturing.
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