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Can Tokyo’s charms be replicated elsewhere?

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Re: Can Tokyo’s charms be replicated elsewhere?

#141

Post by TapWaterBandit »

deltaseventhree wrote: post #122
mxkopy wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's not conflate people being clean because the government is notoriously lethal and is tracking your social standing with people being clean because they've been taught from a young age to be respectful to the environment. Authoritarian 'harmony' doesn't imply any sort of longevity.

Sure. But make sure you also conflate freedom with people dying from the opioid epidemic, the huge drug problem in San Francisco and homeless encampments everywhere and the complete and utter failure to build one rail line connecting LA and SF. All of these problems occur because the US values individual freedoms over central authority. You will note: Freedom doesn't imply any sort of longevity Either. The problem wi…

Benjamin Franklin said it best imho: "Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."

A lot of the modern emphasis on explaining away people's behaviour as an inevitable outcome of their poverty/race/culture/history (depending on who you ask) is a leading cause of a lot of the problems we see imho.

One of the core beliefs our society is based on is that God gave us free will so we can make choices. While some degree of corrective was maybe necessary as current and historical wrongs do impact us today, it has gone too far imo. Someone at some point of time has to break a cycle by making a choice to be a better person.

Re: Can Tokyo’s charms be replicated elsewhere?

#142

Post by TapWaterBandit »

pempem wrote: post #133
rjzzleep wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think any place in the world comes close to the USA in terms of its prison(labor) camps. It has the highest per capita rate of incarceration on the planet. So I don’t think his comparison is warranted. But I’m actually in Japan right now, and while I definitely did fetishize Japan to some extent this trip has not been pleasant. Last night I went out for a call in front of my Airbnb so I wouldn’t wake up my ba…

Not sure why you're being downvoted...the context that seems to be missing from the OP comment is: The cops in Japan are nicer to visibly identifiable Japanese people than white cops are to assumed white US citizens. Yes you're more likely to be shot or worse in America, but most often as a nonwhite person. More often to be jailed as well and once you add white citizens of middle and working classes or simply homeles…

More whites are shot by police each year than every other ethnicity combined. Sure as a percentage it isn't equal but it isn't close to as unequal as you seem to be implying here.

Blacks are 3x as likely to be shot as a white but when factoring in the documented higher crime rate of blacks as a percentage of the population this isn't as clearcut an issue as the media makes it seem.

Re: Can Tokyo’s charms be replicated elsewhere?

#143

Post by TapWaterBandit »

danielscrubs wrote: post #138
TapWaterBandit wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They’re not showing it to you. They keep it private but it’s still there. (that’s called “honne and tatemae”) There is in my opinion a direct conflict between everyone being highly individual and noone being willing to show it. What does individualism even mean if it isn't visible? I'd never deny Japan has a lot of great culture and soft power however my definition of individualism contains a key component that an…

”What does individualism even mean if it isn't visible?” This beautifully sums up east vs west.

How so?

Re: Can Tokyo’s charms be replicated elsewhere?

#144

Post by wesapien »

mradek wrote: post #66

Yeah but then you need something that people seem to get upset over. Culture. And that doesn’t mean getting stoned or acting weird or being narcissistic af, but having some basic moral and virtuous behavior. You see old people come out and start cleaning the stairs after a rain. I saw it first hand and thought wow this would never happen in the US. You see people get in line and let the people onboard the train out b…

this trash culture you speak of is mostly in the big cities. there are still good parts of the US.

Re: Can Tokyo’s charms be replicated elsewhere?

#145

Post by GameOfFrowns »

digianarchist wrote: post #137
llanowarelves wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People don't like to hear it, but a high-trust society is enabled by homogeneity. Look at Japan's demographics, and opposition to foreign religions, languages, etc. They don't allow "the world" to recreate itself inside them, and the conflict and distrust (Bowling Alone, Robert Putnam) that that brings.

Singapore is a high-trust society without the homogeneity.

Does the high trust stem from interpersonal solidarity or draconian persecution of misbehaviour?

Re: Can Tokyo’s charms be replicated elsewhere?

#146

Post by wesapien »

JohnBooty wrote: post #118
JasonFruit wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're describing the Midwest. People clear sidewalks and driveways for each other after a snow, unasked and uncompensated. People let each other off public transportation before crowding on. And... there are drunks everywhere. So two out of three. But what I'm aiming at is this: in less urbanized areas of the United States, the sort of shared ideas that allow successful coexistence exist. It's largely the ma…

My experience in America (even up here in the "mean" northeast) is that we do tend to treat our families and neighbors very decently, which suggests that we're not exactly devoid of compassion. However, I believe this is different than what the parent poster is talking about. The parent poster refers not to a generalized lack of compassion from Americans, but a peculiar lack of respect for shared, public spaces. I th…

this diffusion of responsibility for shared spaces or public spaces is one of the peculiar things the USA will share with the PRC.

Re: Can Tokyo’s charms be replicated elsewhere?

#147

Post by llanowarelves »

digianarchist wrote: post #137
llanowarelves wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People don't like to hear it, but a high-trust society is enabled by homogeneity. Look at Japan's demographics, and opposition to foreign religions, languages, etc. They don't allow "the world" to recreate itself inside them, and the conflict and distrust (Bowling Alone, Robert Putnam) that that brings.

Singapore is a high-trust society without the homogeneity.

Yes though increase in diversity brings higher demand for authority because it seems to be the only thing that can bring order. Some would call Singapore "authoritarian" (how compatible is it with "Democracy" of the West? Or post-Imperial Japan for that matter -- the main topic here). They invest energy into micromanaging it.[1]

There was a lot of racial tension[2] in Singapore before Lee Kuan Yew straightened them out. Mandates on what languages to use for what ethnicities, with English being the main language, seems to have worked. As well as a racial quota system to prevent natural self-sorting into ethnic groups, and to enforce integration.

"To prevent conflicts and ethnic isolation (Singapore is the safest city in the world according to Gallup) ethnic quotas are mandatory.The distribution of public housing is carried out based on these quotas and it is impossible to find a block of apartments in which the percentage of Chinese, Indians and Malay people gives preference to one of the groups (with regard to the country’s population). And since the construction and ownership of the property are strictly regulated, given the lack of space on the island, it is extremely hard to escape the system. These quotas are also applied within the administration itself, in businesses and even in some activities such as leisure.To date, the system has been a success that has almost prevented any sign of segregation. However, the model depends on a system of surveillance, punishment and repression, which feels somewhat Orwellian, but without which, its implementation would not be feasible. This is, paradoxically, a society that voluntarily relinquishes certain freedoms related to the way in which citizens interact with one another, in order to guarantee their coexistence."[3]

[1]https://www.asianews.it/news-en/Ethnic-and-religious-violenc...

[2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1964_race_riots_in_Singapore

[3]https://tomorrow.city/a/forced-integration-plan-singapore

Re: Can Tokyo’s charms be replicated elsewhere?

#148

Post by GameOfFrowns »

decafninja wrote: post #89
barry-cotter wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would argue differently, and say that it's entirely a factor of density. The more people that are crammed into a small area, the more you will see the spectrum of human behavior in any given situation. Then why are New York and Chicago so much worse in this regard than Tokyo? They’re all big, dense, highly populated cities.

As someone above said - culture. As to why the culture is different between say, NYC and Tokyo, well there’s many factors involved. But as some people say when describing certain things in NYC, “it’s why we can’t have nice things”.

>NYC and Tokyo, well there’s many factors involved.

And the most obvious one is demographic composition.

Re: Can Tokyo’s charms be replicated elsewhere?

#149

Post by GameOfFrowns »

largepeepee wrote: post #57
throwaway-9000 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Japan is also one of the least diverse developed countries with well over 90% of inhabitants being Yamato Japanese. It is unsurprising that it would be safe, clean, and functional.

It's not a race thing, it's a trust and culture thing. There are diverse countries that have similar levels of safety like Singapore. If your government sucks, laws are poorly enforced or even maliciously enforced - there is low trust among the people, no respect for public spaces and no one follows the social norms.

>There are diverse countries that have similar levels of safety like Singapore.

Any examples for this statement?

Re: Can Tokyo’s charms be replicated elsewhere?

#150

Post by wesapien »

toxicFork wrote: post #116
mradek wrote: post #66

Yeah but then you need something that people seem to get upset over. Culture. And that doesn’t mean getting stoned or acting weird or being narcissistic af, but having some basic moral and virtuous behavior. You see old people come out and start cleaning the stairs after a rain. I saw it first hand and thought wow this would never happen in the US. You see people get in line and let the people onboard the train out b…

This is achievable with cultural education and values being taught from families and schools. It's not that much effort, but it may look unfeasible in the beginning.

Culture starts at home and in the family. No thanks to state sponsored cultural re-education.
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