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Can Tokyo’s charms be replicated elsewhere?

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Re: Can Tokyo’s charms be replicated elsewhere?

#41

Post by ilyt »

renewiltord wrote: post #5

An absolutely amazing city. And fascinating in that in this more collectivist society you have actual individualism whereas most American towns are heavily conformist and enforce this through law. A curious glimpse into the fact that societies are not simply collectivist or individualist but so or not so across multiple axes. One thing that I find interesting is how much laws influence these things and how a society…

I think the axis here to look at is not individualism vs collectivism but empathy and willingness to cooperate.

> It seems that societies grow greatly and then settle into a period of stagnation, constantly talking about golden years while actively stifling them in the present - moribund European economies, the erstwhile innovation cities of America.

I feel like more often it's not "it was great but now it is worse" but the fact people forget the bad stuff and remember the good times.

Sure, buying a home is more expensive than ever but in general standards of living in most places are steadily growing and we're not getting poisoned by lead in petrol or have lead &asbestos in walls.

Re: Can Tokyo’s charms be replicated elsewhere?

#42

Post by TapWaterBandit »

astrange wrote: post #26
renewiltord wrote: post #5

An absolutely amazing city. And fascinating in that in this more collectivist society you have actual individualism whereas most American towns are heavily conformist and enforce this through law. A curious glimpse into the fact that societies are not simply collectivist or individualist but so or not so across multiple axes. One thing that I find interesting is how much laws influence these things and how a society…

Japanese people are significantly more individualist than Americans. You can have any weird hobby you want and they’ll ignore you. They produce more cultural exports per capita than the US does too. The stereotypical collectivist society is a better description of Korea. A better way to explain Japan is it’s like England but Asian.

I find this implausible after just having visited Japan. The Japanese and Japanese culture are a lot of great things but I would never ever describe it as individualistic.

Re: Can Tokyo’s charms be replicated elsewhere?

#43

Post by version_five »

diob wrote: post #28
blue039 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're safe because their police make the US police look human. The amount of ways you can accidentally end up in prison with some extreme sentences is uncountable. I'd recommend watching any of the traveling channels to see their warnings on it for foreigners. Punishments for something even as simple as public intoxication can be comparatively severe when juxtaposed with, for example, the US where you might spend t…

I have a feeling you've never actually been there. They do have an issue with forced confessions, but you're much more likely to be arrested or worse (shot) in the USA for no reason. But beyond that, this is an over simplification of something that stems from multiple things, not some singular root reason. And if you want data, look no further than https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_United_States_in... for w…

> And if you want data, look no further than https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_United_States_in... for why your take is absolutely bonkers.

This doesn't refute the OP's claims, and I think could support them. OP is saying (to paraphrase) that Japan's tough on crime stance is a deterrent, and so there is less crime, and so fewer people incarcerated.

Also, I don't think a reasonable person is worried about getting arrested or shot going to the US. I'm sure I might be possible to make it happen, but as a Canadian, I have never been worried about either of those things going to the US.

Re: Can Tokyo’s charms be replicated elsewhere?

#44

Post by TapWaterBandit »

BMc2020 wrote: post #20

Tokyo today is unusually liveable— safe , clean, functional and vibrant—for a megacity of its size: 37m in its greater metropolitan area, including 14m people in the central wards. Safe streets are the key.

Completely agree.

Safe streets allow for so many great things in a city. Unsafe streets mean everything had to also factor in security which completely destroys lots of potential business options from being offered most easily.

A minor example of this would be the vending machines everywhere including in out of sight places which we all know would be destroyed/robbed in many Western cities.

Re: Can Tokyo’s charms be replicated elsewhere?

#45

Post by astrange »

TapWaterBandit wrote: post #42
astrange wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Japanese people are significantly more individualist than Americans. You can have any weird hobby you want and they’ll ignore you. They produce more cultural exports per capita than the US does too. The stereotypical collectivist society is a better description of Korea. A better way to explain Japan is it’s like England but Asian.

I find this implausible after just having visited Japan. The Japanese and Japanese culture are a lot of great things but I would never ever describe it as individualistic.

They’re not showing it to you. They keep it private but it’s still there. (that’s called “honne and tatemae”)

You’re welcome to look through used fashion/music stores in Tokyo if you want to see how good their soft power is.

Meanwhile the stereotypical suburban American thinks every nearby city is a hub of crime and won’t let their children walk anywhere until they’re 25. Vs: https://twitter.com/patio11/status/1596322167222063104

Re: Can Tokyo’s charms be replicated elsewhere?

#46

Post by rjzzleep »

diob wrote: post #28
blue039 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're safe because their police make the US police look human. The amount of ways you can accidentally end up in prison with some extreme sentences is uncountable. I'd recommend watching any of the traveling channels to see their warnings on it for foreigners. Punishments for something even as simple as public intoxication can be comparatively severe when juxtaposed with, for example, the US where you might spend t…

I have a feeling you've never actually been there. They do have an issue with forced confessions, but you're much more likely to be arrested or worse (shot) in the USA for no reason. But beyond that, this is an over simplification of something that stems from multiple things, not some singular root reason. And if you want data, look no further than https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_United_States_in... for w…

I don’t think any place in the world comes close to the USA in terms of its prison(labor) camps. It has the highest per capita rate of incarceration on the planet. So I don’t think his comparison is warranted.

But I’m actually in Japan right now, and while I definitely did fetishize Japan to some extent this trip has not been pleasant.

Last night I went out for a call in front of my Airbnb so I wouldn’t wake up my baby that sleeping.

I spent 10 minutes with police because apparently I was suspicious. He asked me about my reason for being here my visa and all the other shit the much nicer border guards asked me. And because they were backwards retards he wrote it on a piece of paper instead of checking it on a computer. Giving him a Taiwan if that included my passport number was not enough I just had to go inside and wake the kid. BTW had I not been in front of my Airbnb, I wouldn't have been able to fetch my Passport and I would probably have been taken to the ward. Just for being a "suspicious person in the neighbourhood". That's like being a black person in the US except that you don't get beat up or shot.

The proof of rental wasn’t enough either and when I went inside he followed me without even asking which would be illegal in most civilized places. Yes he was polite and he didn’t yell at me but he was still a retarded racist PoS.

Mind you that police in Japan can and will put foreigners in prison in solitary for 14 days without charge for shoplifting just in case.

That said it’s a beautiful place that is very well designed(eg. high buildings next to busy roads protecting the residential areas behind from noise) compared to other places with similar demographics are complete structural unlivable monsters(Tehran for example).

But it’s not a place I would want to spend more than a two week honeymoon phase at.

Re: Can Tokyo’s charms be replicated elsewhere?

#47

Post by jeromegv »

version_five wrote: post #43
diob wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a feeling you've never actually been there. They do have an issue with forced confessions, but you're much more likely to be arrested or worse (shot) in the USA for no reason. But beyond that, this is an over simplification of something that stems from multiple things, not some singular root reason. And if you want data, look no further than https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_United_States_in... for w…

> And if you want data, look no further than https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_United_States_in... for why your take is absolutely bonkers. This doesn't refute the OP's claims, and I think could support them. OP is saying (to paraphrase) that Japan's tough on crime stance is a deterrent, and so there is less crime, and so fewer people incarcerated. Also, I don't think a reasonable person is worried about ge…

You might want to redefine what a reasonable person is. There are tons of Canadians afraid of the police but it’s very likely they don’t look physically like you. You have to get out of your bubble to find them.

Re: Can Tokyo’s charms be replicated elsewhere?

#48

Post by [deleted] »

TapWaterBandit wrote: post #44
BMc2020 wrote: post #20

Tokyo today is unusually liveable— safe , clean, functional and vibrant—for a megacity of its size: 37m in its greater metropolitan area, including 14m people in the central wards. Safe streets are the key.

Completely agree. Safe streets allow for so many great things in a city. Unsafe streets mean everything had to also factor in security which completely destroys lots of potential business options from being offered most easily. A minor example of this would be the vending machines everywhere including in out of sight places which we all know would be destroyed/robbed in many Western cities.

[deleted]

Re: Can Tokyo’s charms be replicated elsewhere?

#49

Post by kitsunesoba »

TapWaterBandit wrote: post #44
BMc2020 wrote: post #20

Tokyo today is unusually liveable— safe , clean, functional and vibrant—for a megacity of its size: 37m in its greater metropolitan area, including 14m people in the central wards. Safe streets are the key.

Completely agree. Safe streets allow for so many great things in a city. Unsafe streets mean everything had to also factor in security which completely destroys lots of potential business options from being offered most easily. A minor example of this would be the vending machines everywhere including in out of sight places which we all know would be destroyed/robbed in many Western cities.

While I lived there, it was also nice that if I went out for a late night combini snack run, I was the scariest thing around in most parts of the city. It may all just be in my head but I've never felt that secure walking around alone late at night in any city here in the US.

Re: Can Tokyo’s charms be replicated elsewhere?

#50

Post by JohnBooty »

blue039 wrote: post #24
BMc2020 wrote: post #20

Tokyo today is unusually liveable— safe , clean, functional and vibrant—for a megacity of its size: 37m in its greater metropolitan area, including 14m people in the central wards. Safe streets are the key.

They're safe because their police make the US police look human. The amount of ways you can accidentally end up in prison with some extreme sentences is uncountable. I'd recommend watching any of the traveling channels to see their warnings on it for foreigners. Punishments for something even as simple as public intoxication can be comparatively severe when juxtaposed with, for example, the US where you might spend t…

Any US/Japan comparison that focuses solely on their legal system (or any other single aspect) while ignoring all of the other massive differences is completely disconnected from reality.

Relative to the US, Japan is ethnically and culturally much more homogeneous. The culture has an intense focus on communalism, respect and duty as well as a host of other differences. For example, cleanliness is much more highly valued. Communal values are often said to have been shaped by the much more frequent natural disasters suffered by Japan. Healthcare is much more affordable and accessible. They have rather different taboos and attitudes around sex. And so on.

Since you apparently believe that a draconian justice system is the primary (sole?) secret to a peaceful society, you might also want to broaden your research to consider countries whose cultures are much closer to America's, have justice systems are much more lenient than America's, and still manage to have lower crime rates. Because there are a lot of them.

I have not spent time in Japan, so feel free to discount this. But I suspect the causal relationship is much more likely to be:

    communalism --> (low crime + harsh penalties for violating societal norms)
Than it is to be:

    harsh penalties --> low crime
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