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Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

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Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#251

Post by viscanti »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #239
CydeWeys wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As more evidence comes out, it seems that Hans has cheated a lot more than he admitted, and potentially over the board as well (for example, this analysis [1] shows that he's playing at superhuman levels in some games.) This is being overstated. There's not any hard evidence suggesting he's been cheating over the board, and for such a potentially career-ruining allegation you'd want some pretty strong evidence.

What does the expression "over the board" mean?

Playing on a physical chess board instead of on the computer.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#252

Post by emmelaich »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #239
CydeWeys wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As more evidence comes out, it seems that Hans has cheated a lot more than he admitted, and potentially over the board as well (for example, this analysis [1] shows that he's playing at superhuman levels in some games.) This is being overstated. There's not any hard evidence suggesting he's been cheating over the board, and for such a potentially career-ruining allegation you'd want some pretty strong evidence.

What does the expression "over the board" mean?

Not online, i.e. face to face.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#253

Post by swores »

kurupt213 wrote: post #229
stephc_int13 wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone should be considered innocent until proven guilty, this is a strong rule for a reason.

It’s not the rule, it’s a rather modern exception.

The word "rule" doesn't imply how old or recent it is (most rules aren't things like "rules of physics", they're things that governments, parents, bosses, teachers etc. make up quite regularly).

The rule (in this case, rule of law) that forbids slavery is pretty modern, surely that doesn't make it any less important?

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#254

Post by lordnacho »

concinds wrote: post #186
eschatology wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's just a principle, used in some laws in some legal systems in some countries — nothing dictates all accusations made on the planet has to abide by "innocent until proven guilty" principle. Nothing dictates that burden of proof is always on the accuser, especially in the internet where there isn't really any authority or agreements on subjects like this. It's just a statement/opinion by grandparent and it baffles…

> If the chess community decides to trust Magnus and his credentials without any proof, that's their prerogative, the concept of criminal innocence doesn't come into play at all here. "Innocent until proven guilty" is not just a legal concept but a social norm. I'm a big Carlsen fan, but that same logic, applied to other domains, has led to witch-hunts throughout history, or character assassination/reputational damag…

> "Innocent until proven guilty" is not just a legal concept but a social norm.

I think the question is whether it ought to be a social norm.

What do you think of Prince Andrew? Hasn't been proven guilty. Should we just go about our business with him as usual? What about everyone else who settles a case?

I think of "Innocent until proven guilty" as a sort of viral trope. People think it's the norm, so when the question comes up, this phrase appears in their minds and is the first thought on justice. But I'm not sure it's a good norm, at least I have yet to hear arguments about why we should follow it, especially outside of the legal realm.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#255

Post by rodary »

H8crilA wrote: post #103
wheresmycraisin wrote: post #99

Magnus Carlsen has basically been a model champion for close to a decade now. He's not known for controversy and the odd situations where he dealt with less-than-classy opponents, he's taken it on the chin and moved on, usually with nothing more than brief statement. And he has been very positive about other younger GM's. So him coming out and "accusing" Niemann is akin to a nobel prize winning scientist accusing a g…

What? Just because of reputation? What are you even talking about... Have you ever heard of "innocent until proven guilty"? The burden of proof is on the accuser. We should be shown evidence, or Carlsen should apologize.

> Have you ever heard of "innocent until proven guilty"?

In the criminal court of law, that's the burden of proof. This is not it.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#256

Post by howeyc »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #239
CydeWeys wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As more evidence comes out, it seems that Hans has cheated a lot more than he admitted, and potentially over the board as well (for example, this analysis [1] shows that he's playing at superhuman levels in some games.) This is being overstated. There's not any hard evidence suggesting he's been cheating over the board, and for such a potentially career-ruining allegation you'd want some pretty strong evidence.

What does the expression "over the board" mean?

offline / in-person

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#257

Post by Tenoke »

radiator wrote: post #240
Tenoke wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a similar way that the best chess engine developer is not the best chess player there's little reason to think that the best person to detect chess engine use is the best player.

Indeed there is every reason. The hardest part is to understand the game of chess. As i wrote, it includes having the entire tree of variations for every position in your mind while investigating. It is absolutely not a matter of simply comparing one-dimensional engine evaluations.

No, the hardest part is likely to understand statistics, have data on cheaters and non-cheaters, analyze the differences, develop and test your methods on validation data, iterate on your process etc.

>includes having the entire tree of variations for every position in your mind while investigating

Too bad even Magnus can't do that and the closest you can get is by writing software to do it for you.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#258

Post by howeyc »

Ma8ee wrote: post #235
luc4sdreyer wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A very easy way to do it would just be to serve the ball at > 400km/h. It's unlikely that a human could accurately return a ball at that speed more than 50% of the time.

I don’t know the rules of tennis well enough, but would it be enough to just have an unreturnable serve to win, even if you can’t return anything yourself?

no, you have to win by two games. So you have to be able to win once with your opponent serving.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#259

Post by krisoft »

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #209
rasz wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Have you ever heard of "innocent until proven guilty"? why would you need proof when Niemann already admitted to cheating in the past?

Because whatever a person did as a child playing online on a second-rate chess site is hardly relevant for a top-level over the board tournament with strict anti-cheating measures. It is simply immoral to deny any kind of redemption to any person who has ever made a mistake. For a person so ready to cast stones, are you yourself without any sin? Should the errors you once made follow you for the rest of your life? I'…

> people should put up some evidence of Niemann's cheating, how exactly he was receiving information on best possible moves,

Do you see how absolutely impossible to do this, don't you?

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#260

Post by yakkomajuri »

Note: I know little about chess but this story captivated me.

I think basing most of the argument on the fact that Niemann has cheated as a kid is not very solid. Even our laws take age into account. Plus from my _personal_ experience highly gifted kids are known to "push boundaries" during their upbringing to test their capacity.

I also don't weigh too much into the "he doesn't analyze like a 2700" argument. I know a very good chess player that could never explain very well why things should be done a certain way. Plus the analysis referred to is in a quite unnatural setting for a chess player.

A final point I want to bring up is that I also instinctively saw this as Carlsen "throwing a tantrum". However, others have been quick to point out that Carlsen has routinely been humble in defeat, praising his opponents. What nobody has mentioned though is that having retired from the world championships, his new stated goal is to reach 2900. With a rating-based goal like such, losing to a sub-2700 player is not only a blow to the ego but also the Elo, which is something that could tip someone over the line. That one loss put Magnus back significantly from his goal, if my understanding is correct.

Anyway, I recognize the chess community gives Magnus the benefit of the doubt, and I can see how he might deserve it. But this certainly needs more than just speculation.

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