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Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

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Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#211

Post by Andrew_nenakhov »

FooHentai wrote: post #29
WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t understand why people are going out their way to justify Carlsen attitude. What we have is the world champion throwing a tantrum because he lost against a player there is absolutely no evidence has cheated against him and is now calling for him to be expelled despite having no evidence whatsoever. This is harassment pure and simple. The whole thing is disgraceful and reflects extremely badly on competitive ch…

I'm with Carlsen on this. If you're caught or admit to cheating even once in a professional competitive career that's it - You should be out for good. That we have this bizarre attitude of permissiveness and time salvation around cheaters in competition is frankly bizarre. What other argument is there than to refuse to engage. It is not difficult to simply never cheat, in the same way that it is not difficult to simp…

> If you're caught or admit to cheating even once in a professional competitive career that's it - You should be out for good.

No, you shouldn't. People make mistakes, especially children. It is simply immoral to close any path to redemption for them. Also, anti-cheating measures on second-rate chess site chess.com are known to produce a lot of false positives. Niemann was never caught cheating in over the board games, so people trying to kill his career because of Carlsen's unspoken allegations should be ashamed of themselves.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#212

Post by vintermann »

not1ofU wrote: post #137
vintermann wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have heard a concrete allegation that in the Capablanca Memorial 2022 tournament (which was over the board), Niemann has games where he plays normally up to a point in the midgame, then he plays the top line of a specific engine (Stockfish 11) for an implausible number of moves in sequence. There are a lot of lower-quality accusations, but this is the interesting one IMO. It should be easy enough to independently c…

ChessBruh mentioned that this youtube channel has analysis of Hans' Games, focusing on centipawn loses after standard openers are filtered out: https://www.youtube.com/c/ChessfanMWP/videos The last 5 or so vids on that channel are in English, but youtube does a decent-ish translation of his other videos too.

Yes, he is the source of that allegation. He is very hard to follow, though. He's not a great caster, and his accent is so thick that YouTube's automatic captioning misidentifies it as Russian.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#213

Post by stephc_int13 »

wheresmycraisin wrote: post #99

Magnus Carlsen has basically been a model champion for close to a decade now. He's not known for controversy and the odd situations where he dealt with less-than-classy opponents, he's taken it on the chin and moved on, usually with nothing more than brief statement. And he has been very positive about other younger GM's. So him coming out and "accusing" Niemann is akin to a nobel prize winning scientist accusing a g…

Anyone should be considered innocent until proven guilty, this is a strong rule for a reason.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#214

Post by davidguetta »

wheresmycraisin wrote: post #99

Magnus Carlsen has basically been a model champion for close to a decade now. He's not known for controversy and the odd situations where he dealt with less-than-classy opponents, he's taken it on the chin and moved on, usually with nothing more than brief statement. And he has been very positive about other younger GM's. So him coming out and "accusing" Niemann is akin to a nobel prize winning scientist accusing a g…

Even Karpov said he played badly in the Sinquefield game. Personally I think Hans didn't cheat in this game ...... but:

my best theory is that Carlsen is afraid to play against people who HAVE cheated once, because there mere thought that he COULD be cheating right now is enough to derail him from clear thinking. I think this because it's exactly what he declared in an interview ABOUT cheating on 2021.

So basically he's boycotting someone as a message for other cheaters and, even if hans is innocent, and keep Chess clean. It's of unfair for Hans if he's not cheating but ... what is a fair justice anyway ? There's always a message sent by a sentence.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#215

Post by nottorp »

jokabrink wrote: post #138

Two peculiar side notes here: 1) The first three and only moves of this game at Julius Bär Generation Cup with Niemann as white is the same opening as the first controversial game (2022-09-05) at the Sinquefield Cup but with flipped sides (Magnus white). 2) Chess.com, the organization that decided to ban Niemann [1] sometime between these two games based on his online play behaviour on that platform, just bought Play…

Then I guess he's not allowed to disparage his buyer by the sales contract, or something like that. And probably won't be for some years.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#216

Post by Andrew_nenakhov »

willsmith72 wrote: post #188
fileeditview wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am absolutely not decided on the issue but you should always remember that the "guy" caught cheating was 12 and 16 when it happened.. I mean he was a kid. Kids do stupid things. So we should not overrate what happened in the past.

The "kid" is only 19. If this were 10 years ago I would get your point, but "kids do stupid things" doesn't apply when he already admitted to doing it only 3 years ago as a 16 year old.

you are comparing a no-stakes online blitz games to performance in professional over the board tournaments.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#217

Post by davidguetta »

Even Karpov said he played badly in the Sinquefield game. Personally I think Hans didn't cheat in this game ...... but:

my best theory is that Carlsen is afraid to play against people who HAVE cheated once, because there mere thought that he COULD be cheating right now is enough to derail him from clear thinking. I think this because it's exactly what he declared in an interview ABOUT cheating on 2021.

So basically he's boycotting someone as a message for other cheaters and, even if hans is innocent, and keep Chess clean. It's of unfair for Hans if he's not cheating but ... what is a fair justice anyway ? There's always a message sent by a sentence.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#218

Post by Andrew_nenakhov »

handsclean wrote: post #202
WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t understand why people are going out their way to justify Carlsen attitude. What we have is the world champion throwing a tantrum because he lost against a player there is absolutely no evidence has cheated against him and is now calling for him to be expelled despite having no evidence whatsoever. This is harassment pure and simple. The whole thing is disgraceful and reflects extremely badly on competitive ch…

That doesn’t match with Carlsen’s past behavior (he’s been consistently graceful in defeat over many years), isn’t what Carlsen did (he refused to play again, he didn’t even directly accuse him of cheating let alone call for his expulsion or harass him), and there isn’t no evidence (just weak evidence). Just consider, for a moment, the possibility that the kid did cheat again. What could Carlsen have possibly done th…

> What could Carlsen have possibly done that you wouldn’t call a tantrum? What he did was the most polite, least confrontational, thing possible.

He could (and should) have played a game in the best way he possibly can. If he'd lose again (which I doubt) we could have analyzed Niemann's performance and maybe arrive to some conclusions.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#219

Post by Andrew_nenakhov »

smeagull wrote: post #54
WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t understand why people are going out their way to justify Carlsen attitude. What we have is the world champion throwing a tantrum because he lost against a player there is absolutely no evidence has cheated against him and is now calling for him to be expelled despite having no evidence whatsoever. This is harassment pure and simple. The whole thing is disgraceful and reflects extremely badly on competitive ch…

If this were online, the guy would long ago have had his account deleted.

On a second-rate chess site, with a very imperfect anti-cheating mechanism that produces a lot of false positives, maybe.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#220

Post by radiator »

tibbar wrote: post #53
tromp wrote: post #23

Applying sound statistical methods to thousands of Niemann games, cheating expert Ken Regan finds no evidence of cheating [1]. > The verdict > Dr. Regan analyzed all of Hans Niemann's games over the last two years, including online games, such as played on Chess.com and their events, and his conclusion is there is no reason whatsoever to suspect him of cheating. The wide range of results in a bell curve, with some go…

This is a strong point in Hans's favor, and Regan is very reputable, but he's also going against the Chess.com team (and Hans himself!) in claiming that he finds no evidence of Hans cheating *online* either.

On the contrary, I don't find it significant at all. I had not even heard of Dr. Regan. He seems to have achieved the IM Title decades ago, today he is probably simply a weak player.

The best expert on opining whether Niemann has been cheating or not is the player who understands the game of chess more deeply than anyone else. He understands it from the human point of view (for example: which variations can a player of X or Y level calculate accurately, which ones might seem to work but are in practice too complicated/too risky to play, which moves are absolutely unbelievable from a human because one has to find ten super moves in a row starting from a non-forcing position) as well as from the engine's point of view, due to his experience in analysing with computers. He also has recent experience in playing Niemann in a tournament.

I trust that Carlsen knows what he is doing.

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