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Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

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Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#181

Post by threatofrain »

FartyMcFarter wrote: post #172
threatofrain wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the other side is that people can trust someone's judgment. Credibility matters and people have to make judgment calls on that basis all the time. When companies decide to hire or even fire people they do so on the basis of credibility, and that can have some pretty serious consequences. Hans has cheated before and that affects credibility. Magnus has been around for awhile and gathered a reputation regarding pro…

> I don't see what's wrong with Magnus throwing his points away to satisfy his preference. Losing games on purpose is unsportsmanlike. Now, if Magnus has good reason to believe that he's just countering bad sportmanship with his own brand of it, that could perhaps be justified in some circumstances. But to the general audience, it makes chess look really bad.

Magnus & Nakamura and a handful of other grandmasters are basically the only reason why chess is not dead to the public; I'm not sure thriving is in the cards ever again for chess. Chess has a lot more to be grateful for with Magnus than not.

That's what Magnus is to the "general audience" with regards to chess, and it's going to take a lot for Magnus to be a net negative to chess. We are only making drama because Magnus is so good. Nobody would be blinking an eye if I failed to show up to a tournament, and my opponent would be glad to reap the points.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#182

Post by alpaca128 »

WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #50
romanovcode wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>is now calling for him to be expelled He made no comment.

He just refused to play against him. You don’t need to talk to make a comment. I don’t understand how an adult can defend Magnus there. As a public figure his attitude is simply shocking.

You interpreting Carlsen's actions as "tantrum" and calling for measures against the other player has just as much evidence as there is for the cheating.

For a public figure his response is unusually quiet and calm to me. Though I'm not into chess so I don't know how it is perceived from that angle.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#183

Post by alpaca128 »

bambax wrote: post #68
Ma8ee wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are still quite a bit of sports where machines can’t compete, like tennis or soccer.

The guy from "Stuff Made Here" builds all sorts of sports machines: a gun-powered golf club, a basketball hoop that's impossible to miss, etc. I think he would be able to make a tennis playing machine that aces every single service shot (if he's not working on that already! ;-)

> (if he's not working on that already! ;-)

Right now he seems to be occupied with his automatic puzzle solver. Based on the first video it looks like it'll take a while.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#184

Post by Cederfjard »

H8crilA wrote: post #168
manojlds wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not supporting Magnus on his actions here. Just that this behaviour is a massive outlier for him.

Yes, and it doesn't matter.

Who are you to decide for whom it does and does not matter? Like others have said, this isn’t a court of law. You have made your standard here clear, cool. Other people have other standards they apply to various situations, and they are using those to discuss this specific topic.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#185

Post by Aeolun »

FartyMcFarter wrote: post #172
threatofrain wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the other side is that people can trust someone's judgment. Credibility matters and people have to make judgment calls on that basis all the time. When companies decide to hire or even fire people they do so on the basis of credibility, and that can have some pretty serious consequences. Hans has cheated before and that affects credibility. Magnus has been around for awhile and gathered a reputation regarding pro…

> I don't see what's wrong with Magnus throwing his points away to satisfy his preference. Losing games on purpose is unsportsmanlike. Now, if Magnus has good reason to believe that he's just countering bad sportmanship with his own brand of it, that could perhaps be justified in some circumstances. But to the general audience, it makes chess look really bad.

> Losing games on purpose is unsportsmanlike.

So is cheating. At least this is blindingly obvious.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#186

Post by concinds »

eschatology wrote: post #129
H8crilA wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? Just because of reputation? What are you even talking about... Have you ever heard of "innocent until proven guilty"? The burden of proof is on the accuser. We should be shown evidence, or Carlsen should apologize.

It's just a principle, used in some laws in some legal systems in some countries — nothing dictates all accusations made on the planet has to abide by "innocent until proven guilty" principle. Nothing dictates that burden of proof is always on the accuser, especially in the internet where there isn't really any authority or agreements on subjects like this. It's just a statement/opinion by grandparent and it baffles…

> If the chess community decides to trust Magnus and his credentials without any proof, that's their prerogative, the concept of criminal innocence doesn't come into play at all here.

"Innocent until proven guilty" is not just a legal concept but a social norm. I'm a big Carlsen fan, but that same logic, applied to other domains, has led to witch-hunts throughout history, or character assassination/reputational damage when someone is accused of something but those accusations are never tested in court.

Coming back to chess, this isn't a casual situation with your friends, but a professional environment with norms and with money on the line. Imagine the same thing at your workplace.

Random non-experts taking sides here is inappropriate. Even many other Grandmasters have opinions on these accusations (true or false), but are refusing to state them publicly, preferring to let it play itself out, due to their respect for norms. Magnus is entitled to his opinion and to expressing them, but treating them as facts rather than accusations is just strange.

Chess cheating expert Ken Regan thinks Niemann didn't cheat. "Innocent until proven guilty" obviously applies.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#187

Post by Lapsa »

H8crilA wrote: post #103
wheresmycraisin wrote: post #99

Magnus Carlsen has basically been a model champion for close to a decade now. He's not known for controversy and the odd situations where he dealt with less-than-classy opponents, he's taken it on the chin and moved on, usually with nothing more than brief statement. And he has been very positive about other younger GM's. So him coming out and "accusing" Niemann is akin to a nobel prize winning scientist accusing a g…

What? Just because of reputation? What are you even talking about... Have you ever heard of "innocent until proven guilty"? The burden of proof is on the accuser. We should be shown evidence, or Carlsen should apologize.

who's accusing?

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#188

Post by willsmith72 »

fileeditview wrote: post #95
FooHentai wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm with Carlsen on this. If you're caught or admit to cheating even once in a professional competitive career that's it - You should be out for good. That we have this bizarre attitude of permissiveness and time salvation around cheaters in competition is frankly bizarre. What other argument is there than to refuse to engage. It is not difficult to simply never cheat, in the same way that it is not difficult to simp…

I am absolutely not decided on the issue but you should always remember that the "guy" caught cheating was 12 and 16 when it happened.. I mean he was a kid. Kids do stupid things. So we should not overrate what happened in the past.

The "kid" is only 19. If this were 10 years ago I would get your point, but "kids do stupid things" doesn't apply when he already admitted to doing it only 3 years ago as a 16 year old.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#189

Post by __s »

huijzer wrote: post #116

A possible explanation I haven’t seen yet is that Magnus his second move is meant as a test. It reminds me of the old days where a chess computer would take much longer for an uncommon move at the start than a common move. Maybe Magnus was testing the response of Hans to his uncommon move and wasn’t pleased with the result? I don’t think that Magnus his behaviour is random. I mean he is literally a chess player.

At the top level Nf6 is the most popular response to d4. & 2. c4 the most popular response to 1. d4 Nf6

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#190

Post by marcusbuffett »

huijzer wrote: post #116

A possible explanation I haven’t seen yet is that Magnus his second move is meant as a test. It reminds me of the old days where a chess computer would take much longer for an uncommon move at the start than a common move. Maybe Magnus was testing the response of Hans to his uncommon move and wasn’t pleased with the result? I don’t think that Magnus his behaviour is random. I mean he is literally a chess player.

Are you talking about this most recent game? Because the move he played was 1… Nf6, after 1.d4, which is one of the top three responses to d4, called the King’s Indian. Whether Hans is cheating or not, there’s zero chance he doesn’t know what to do against a King’s Indian. Magnus plays some off-the-wall openings and I think he could use it as a bit of a test like you’re saying, but this one wasn’t one of them
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