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Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

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Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#151

Post by honkdaddy »

H8crilA wrote: post #103
wheresmycraisin wrote: post #99

Magnus Carlsen has basically been a model champion for close to a decade now. He's not known for controversy and the odd situations where he dealt with less-than-classy opponents, he's taken it on the chin and moved on, usually with nothing more than brief statement. And he has been very positive about other younger GM's. So him coming out and "accusing" Niemann is akin to a nobel prize winning scientist accusing a g…

What? Just because of reputation? What are you even talking about... Have you ever heard of "innocent until proven guilty"? The burden of proof is on the accuser. We should be shown evidence, or Carlsen should apologize.

"Innocent until proven guilty" is generally used in when talking about the state and punitive decision making, not a social norm. If my three best friends accused someone of trying to rob them, I'd be comfortable believing them even if they didn't get the altercation on camera. Would the police? Depends on the country, because as you said, the robber would be (and should be) considered innocent until the state can explicitly prove their guilt.

I don't think we should live in a society where people can be imprisoned by relying on accusations alone, of course hard evidence should be required, but I don't mind living in a society where people are free to use the shared knowledge of their own community to reach epistemological conclusions. If the chess community decides to trust Magnus and his credentials without any proof, that's their prerogative, the concept of criminal innocence doesn't come into play at all here.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#154

Post by rglullis »

Semaphor wrote: post #113
rglullis wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good question... Why should we care? It's like "okay, here we have a bunch of genetically gifted people who spend their whole lives training for that. Why should we care whether someone can run 100m in less than 10s or not? What difference does it make to any of us if Usain Bolt is the fastest man to run the 200m on a very controlled environment?" This is not to say that running as an activity is useless, or that we…

The answer is entertainment. I don’t care about any sports (though after a brief stint in watching LoL esports around 2011-2014, I at least understand the theoretical appeal), but many people do. Others don’t care about music. Or about films. But in the end all of it is bread and games.

Entertainment works as an answer of why we do it, but not the question I made, which is why/whether we should.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#155

Post by manojlds »

bosie wrote: post #86
dane-pgp wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe Carlsen doesn't know who to blame. He could suspect Niemann, or someone on Niemann's team, or someone in his own team, or a backdoor in Stockfish, or (depending on Carlsen's own mental health right now) space aliens. I can understand that out of an abundance of caution (and on the advice of his lawyers) he doesn't want to name anyone in particular, although seeing so many fingers pointed at Niemann (understanda…

How can it be someone from his own team? If someone from his own team leaked the prep to Niemann and Niemann prepared against it, that isn't even cheating on Niemann's part?

> that isn't even cheating on Niemann's part?

Has Magnus said he's cheating?

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#156

Post by manojlds »

rwmj wrote: post #11
tibbar wrote: post #2

For context, Magnus withdrew from a major tournament last month after losing to Hans. He has not made a statement, but it is understood that he suspects Hans of cheating. Hans has admitted to cheating online, though he denies cheating in person. As more evidence comes out, it seems that Hans has cheated a lot more than he admitted, and potentially over the board as well (for example, this analysis [1] shows that he's…

Is there any clue how he may be cheating? Apparently they have metal detectors at the events.

Elon and others seems to think beads in the back.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#157

Post by mtlmtlmtlmtl »

dane-pgp wrote: post #93
morelisp wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there's any cheating, how could Niemann himself not be involved?

Someone on Niemann's team could have been feeding him info which "coincidentally" happens to be very useful, without Niemann suspecting where the info came from. (A bug in Carlsen's hotel room?) Someone on Carlsen's team could be encouraging him to focus on lines which they've discovered (through a bug in the hotel room) that Niemann's team is preparing counters for. In both of these cases, the corrupt team member co…

First of all I don't think Niemann has much of a team yet. But the prep leak idea makes no sense. If someone's on Carlsen's team gives Hans "leaked prep", why should he believe them? It could be a red herring.

Pretty much every grandmaster who has commented on the prep leak idea has stated it just makes no sense on the face of it.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#158

Post by manojlds »

nextlevelwizard wrote: post #83
tibbar wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a strong point in Hans's favor, and Regan is very reputable, but he's also going against the Chess.com team (and Hans himself!) in claiming that he finds no evidence of Hans cheating *online* either.

I think the important bit is the "last two years". Niemann has admitted cheating like 5-6 years ago.

When he was 16 - that 3 years ago at max.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#159

Post by mayankkaizen »

jeroenhd wrote: post #98

I don't follow chess. I've heard of Carlsen in passing but that's about it. As far as I can make up from this story, Niemann admitted to cheating online as a child (not exactly uncommon) but as of yet there's not an ounce of proof that he cheated against Carlsen. What I don't understand is that people just take Carlsen's side without any proof. Some guy beat Carlsen so he must be cheating? What kind of reasoning is t…

I don't follow chess much except for some headlines. Carlson is legend and Niemann practically nobody. This is very common tendency to side with legends in any field. But in this case, it is not like Carlson lost the game only for the first time so his accusations against Niemann does carry some weight, especially when Niemann himself admitted to cheating (albeit when he was a kid). Since I am totally unaware of Chess world, my first hunch would be 'Carlsen may be right' but I don't want Niemann's career to be destroyed simply based on that hunch. That is where evidence matters.

But yes, Carlsen should be careful because if it turns out he made accusations out of nothing or out of spite, his entire reputation is at stake. I hope Carlsen made those accusations based on something solid.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#160

Post by manojlds »

H8crilA wrote: post #146
manojlds wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His biggest challenge is next generation of younger prodigies like Pragg. He clapped at the end of their game in appreciation of Pragg. He's not paranoid about being usurped and knowing him through the years, he is going to take that as a challenge.

Quoted post unavailable.

I am not supporting Magnus on his actions here. Just that this behaviour is a massive outlier for him.
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