Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

new.chess24.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

171–180 of 338 posts

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#171

Post by smcl »

jpgvm wrote: post #148
fwsgonzo wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly how it works. It's disappointing how many ifs and buts people are giving him just because they don't particularly like Carlsen. It really shows. Cheaters are serial cheaters, and they will deny deny deny. The problem is really that he has admitted to cheating more than once. There is a reason why sports and just about everything else employs zero-tolerance policies: It doesn't just happen once.

It can though. Kids can be young and make stupid mistakes. I'm not saying that is what happened here - I really don't follow chess enough to have an informed opinion on this specific case. However I object to the blanket opinion that there aren't people who cheated once and absolutely regretted it and never did it again, especially kids, especially online.

On one level you're right, if you do something dishonest then admit it that doesn't automatically mean you're never to be trusted ever again. However I think the more times someone goes through the deny/concede cycle I described, the less trustworthy they are, especially if it's for exactly the same thing each time.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#172

Post by FartyMcFarter »

threatofrain wrote: post #163
FartyMcFarter wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You definitely don't have to trust his judgment. People change, he could be paranoid at the moment for all we know. Magnus should explain his actions to the organisers and the public, or just not enter tournaments.

And the other side is that people can trust someone's judgment. Credibility matters and people have to make judgment calls on that basis all the time. When companies decide to hire or even fire people they do so on the basis of credibility, and that can have some pretty serious consequences. Hans has cheated before and that affects credibility. Magnus has been around for awhile and gathered a reputation regarding pro…

> I don't see what's wrong with Magnus throwing his points away to satisfy his preference.

Losing games on purpose is unsportsmanlike. Now, if Magnus has good reason to believe that he's just countering bad sportmanship with his own brand of it, that could perhaps be justified in some circumstances. But to the general audience, it makes chess look really bad.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#173

Post by jpgvm »

smcl wrote: post #171
jpgvm wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can though. Kids can be young and make stupid mistakes. I'm not saying that is what happened here - I really don't follow chess enough to have an informed opinion on this specific case. However I object to the blanket opinion that there aren't people who cheated once and absolutely regretted it and never did it again, especially kids, especially online.

On one level you're right, if you do something dishonest then admit it that doesn't automatically mean you're never to be trusted ever again. However I think the more times someone goes through the deny/concede cycle I described, the less trustworthy they are, especially if it's for exactly the same thing each time.

I will agree with that too, if there is evidence of cheating after previously having claimed to have repented I would be highly unlikely to advocate for a third chance.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#174

Post by Tenoke »

manojlds wrote: post #142
FartyMcFarter wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You definitely don't have to trust his judgment. People change, he could be paranoid at the moment for all we know. Magnus should explain his actions to the organisers and the public, or just not enter tournaments.

His biggest challenge is next generation of younger prodigies like Pragg. He clapped at the end of their game in appreciation of Pragg. He's not paranoid about being usurped and knowing him through the years, he is going to take that as a challenge.

Hans made a comment after their game but before the drama - "Must be embarrassing for the World Champion to lose to such an idiot like me" which couldve easily tilted Magnus more than a simple loss with black (rather than white) or draw with someone like Pragg.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#175

Post by Hanschri »

cupofjoakim wrote: post #16
kareemsabri wrote: post #6

Kind of a basic question but how do you cheat at chess, especially "over the board" ?

There are many ways. You need outside help for everything though - you need someone to input the current board state into some kind of chess engine, and then relay the best possible move back to you somehow. There have been cases where someone has hidden a phone in the bathrooms to use for either communicating or inputting into a chess engine themselves. In Niemanns case people have joked about vibrating anal beads c…

You don't even have to relay the move to the player, simply giving a sign that this move is important can be enough for the player to understand they've got the edge and utilize that. It could be as simple as someone in view giving a sign with body language. Remember also that a professional chess player doesn't need to cheat every single move, cheating once in a game at the right move can be enough to put the game in your favor at such a high level.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#176

Post by smcl »

jpgvm wrote: post #173
smcl wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On one level you're right, if you do something dishonest then admit it that doesn't automatically mean you're never to be trusted ever again. However I think the more times someone goes through the deny/concede cycle I described, the less trustworthy they are, especially if it's for exactly the same thing each time.

I will agree with that too, if there is evidence of cheating after previously having claimed to have repented I would be highly unlikely to advocate for a third chance.

As an interesting aside, it looks like we're both in a similar situation - normally non-chess people who have read or watched a bit about this - but we happened to have landed on different opinions (me being a bit suspicious, you being willing to give benefit of the doubt). So it's funny that this issue appears to have divided both insiders and outsiders alike.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#177

Post by willsmith72 »

Keyframe wrote: post #78
Akashic101 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hans as admitted to cheating on chess.com when he was 12 and 16, so not that long ago since he is only 19 right now.

12, 16, and 19 are worlds apart.

16 and 19 aren't, and who's to say there's a 3 year gap there?

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#178

Post by michaelt »

WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #18
tibbar wrote: post #2

For context, Magnus withdrew from a major tournament last month after losing to Hans. He has not made a statement, but it is understood that he suspects Hans of cheating. Hans has admitted to cheating online, though he denies cheating in person. As more evidence comes out, it seems that Hans has cheated a lot more than he admitted, and potentially over the board as well (for example, this analysis [1] shows that he's…

I don’t understand why people are going out their way to justify Carlsen attitude. What we have is the world champion throwing a tantrum because he lost against a player there is absolutely no evidence has cheated against him and is now calling for him to be expelled despite having no evidence whatsoever. This is harassment pure and simple. The whole thing is disgraceful and reflects extremely badly on competitive ch…

> I don’t understand why people are going out their way to justify Carlsen attitude.

Well, chess players are famous for spending a lot of time analysing their opponents' games in great detail. And the world champion is in a sense the greatest living human analyser of high-level chess games.

You're right that Carlsen hasn't produced any hard evidence - or even made any clear statements. But on the other hand, for me to say I knew better than him about analysing chess would make it look like I didn't know what I was talking about.

Without hard evidence I don't think Niemann should be punished - but it's certainly appropriate to take a very hard look.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#179

Post by TrackerFF »

systemvoltage wrote: post #104
wheresmycraisin wrote: post #99

Magnus Carlsen has basically been a model champion for close to a decade now. He's not known for controversy and the odd situations where he dealt with less-than-classy opponents, he's taken it on the chin and moved on, usually with nothing more than brief statement. And he has been very positive about other younger GM's. So him coming out and "accusing" Niemann is akin to a nobel prize winning scientist accusing a g…

Nobel prize or not, evidence is needed. Nobel prize is sort of orthogonal to the situation where many other Nobel prize winners also have reservations about the accusation including Gary Kasparov and Fabiano Caruana. Magnus can’t play God, sorry. Eh, let’s call Caruana Fields medalist :-).

I don't think there's not going to be any binary or absolute outcome in this - if Niemann is actually (formally) accused of cheating.

Best thing would probably be some statistical analysis, and some likelihood of the moves made. And in the end, someone will probably conclude that there's a x% chance that cheating occurred.

With that said - at this level, I don't know how you differentiate true outlier moves, from the player just being incredibly apt at the game? I've heard that one way of identifying algorithmic / computer programs, is that the moves can extremely weird compared to what a human player would have done.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#180

Post by hugh-avherald »

Macha wrote: post #9
ramraj07 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who’s never been able to appreciate or follow sports where a machine can be an order of magnitude better than a human, I would genuinely like to understand why people are enamored about such sports. In the end it seems like brilliant minds lost in math that’s not even novel anymore.. again everyone should do what they please, but this is just an academic question from someone unable to appreciate such skil…

Why care about racing when a motor vehicle can do travel at speed better, by that logic?

Your argument is valid, but it should be noted that the best autonomous racing cars in the world would get absolutely trounced by even amateur racing drivers.
Post reply on HN