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Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

wsj.com

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Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#51

Post by mamonster »

dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #28
Mikeb85 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Armenians are both white and Christian. They just happen to stuck in a hard place (NATO needs Turkey and Turkey is intent on finishing their centuries-long genocide of Armenians through their proxy Azerbaijan).

And it would be interesting to see how it plays out as Russia refused to help Armenia - but it looks like the USA is siding with Armenia against Azerbaijan (and I don't believe it is just to make Erdogan angry).

IMO they are siding with Armenia at the moment only because the latest conflict actually took place on the border between the 2 countries. Once Azerbaijan restarts in NK/Artsakh proper, USA will get on the sideline.

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#52

Post by beebeepka »

emptysongglass wrote: post #30
goatsneez wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The myths we live by... My remark is of a philosophical nature how a culture/society creates its myths and their role in the dynamics of elites and the subjects. None of the comments, neither the original article nor on this thread cover even 1% of the reality on the origin of the crisis (energy), nor does it explain how the current EU energy market has been developed by whom and who it keeps in power, and what might…

You're throwing shade without presenting "the truth" as you see it. Perhaps if you uncloaked we might better be able to judge what the truth is according to you. The origin of the energy crisis is very clear: Germany's leaders have been instrumental in tying the cart to the horse of Russian energy for decades to the loud, repeated warnings of others. This is a crisis largely self-inflicted. Medieval mentality is what…

Self inflicted for sure but what is the alternative? The US simply invades when they want/need something. The EU cannot, for a plethora of reasons.

Resources is a zero sum game despite what the propaganda says

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#53

Post by Herodotus38 »

paganel wrote: post #11
dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #3

> European governments say Mr. Putin’s gambit is to cut natural-gas supplies to inflict pain on European households and businesses so populations turn against current government policies of sanctions against Russia and support for Ukraine with weapons and financial aid. He's so terribly wrong. He doesn't know Europeans at all. There is no way people would say, "We are cold so it is fine to kill Ukrainians." How could…

> There is no way people would say, "We are cold so it is fine to kill Ukrainians." We killed one of our former presidents at the execution wall because of rationalized food and cold in our homes. I am European. And before anyone comes in and says: "you killed Ceausescu because you wanted communism deposed!". No, we didn't, we wanted "communism" that would provide us with food in the stores and heat in our homes, "co…

Thanks for your comment. That wikipedia article led me to watch Ceausescu's last speech and learn more about that time. It's such an interesting video because you understand the transition that he's lost control of the country (I don't want to say moment because it's probably much more complicated).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcRWiz1PhKU

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#54

Post by LudwigNagasena »

dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #26
usedonce3rty4 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. We all remember the solidarity EU showed among its members during the previous economic crisis and during COVID. I'm sure we're all happy to support Eurocrats again in their quest to get Ukraine in NATO for no good reason at all and -like they say- fight Putin to the last Ukrainian.

Until recently Russia was more or less neutral. Now that it showed its aggressive face and complete contempt of human lives, people are happy that it gets weaker and weaker. Yes, Ukrainians are dying, but they prefer to die rather than live under the Russian boot.

Many Ukrainians actually tried to leave Ukraine but they were forbidden to do so under a sexist policy that forced them to join the army.

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#55

Post by somedude895 »

camillomiller wrote: post #14
seydor wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That s what "european governments say" that putin thinks, not what he thinks. He is always looking for ways to use EU rules against itself, and thanks to lots of regulations, EU has tied itself in a knot here. Also i don't think you re right. Europeans were fine with "let yemenis die" , and fine with "let armenians die" becuase of oil and gas respectively.

Those are not our people (non christian, non white). Ukrainians are. There is absolutely a difference that could be called racism, or more keenly it’s the fact that people are moved more by what they consider more close and similar to themselves. Just to be clear, I think that’s wrong, but I wouldn’t compare those two examples with Ukraine.

This is exactly right. I saw a picture of newly built houses with dead bodies strewn in front of them (Can't find the picture anymore, been looking for a while now). The houses and scenery looked like it could be my country. No pictures of war in the past ever hit me like that.

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#56

Post by colordrops »

camillomiller wrote: post #14
seydor wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That s what "european governments say" that putin thinks, not what he thinks. He is always looking for ways to use EU rules against itself, and thanks to lots of regulations, EU has tied itself in a knot here. Also i don't think you re right. Europeans were fine with "let yemenis die" , and fine with "let armenians die" becuase of oil and gas respectively.

Those are not our people (non christian, non white). Ukrainians are. There is absolutely a difference that could be called racism, or more keenly it’s the fact that people are moved more by what they consider more close and similar to themselves. Just to be clear, I think that’s wrong, but I wouldn’t compare those two examples with Ukraine.

To assume that everyone chooses skin color and religion as the core identifiers for similarity and value is awfully presumptuous. Those should absolutely not be the deciding factor as to whether lives matter. Yemeni and Ukrainian lives are of equal value, full stop.

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#57

Post by jhugo »

camillomiller wrote: post #14
seydor wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That s what "european governments say" that putin thinks, not what he thinks. He is always looking for ways to use EU rules against itself, and thanks to lots of regulations, EU has tied itself in a knot here. Also i don't think you re right. Europeans were fine with "let yemenis die" , and fine with "let armenians die" becuase of oil and gas respectively.

Those are not our people (non christian, non white). Ukrainians are. There is absolutely a difference that could be called racism, or more keenly it’s the fact that people are moved more by what they consider more close and similar to themselves. Just to be clear, I think that’s wrong, but I wouldn’t compare those two examples with Ukraine.

Neither Yemen nor Armenia have much strategic importance for NATO, Ukraine does. That's the difference. The support for Ukraine isn't being driven from the bottom up, it's being driven from the top down. And Armenia is white and Christian, btw.

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#58

Post by throwaway473825 »

Ambolia wrote: post #24

I think the only question here is not if the EU can secure "enough gas", which I doubt it can even if the article is so sure, but at what price? And can the German industry stay competitive with those energy prices? In case it can't, what will be the EU's future without Germany as the economic motor?

Germany has never had competitive gas prices compared to the US or China. Germany competed despite the energy prices (electricity is even more expensive). Since Germany mostly sells premium products, they will probably be fine.

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#59

Post by cm2187 »

dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #3

> European governments say Mr. Putin’s gambit is to cut natural-gas supplies to inflict pain on European households and businesses so populations turn against current government policies of sanctions against Russia and support for Ukraine with weapons and financial aid. He's so terribly wrong. He doesn't know Europeans at all. There is no way people would say, "We are cold so it is fine to kill Ukrainians." How could…

It's not just "killing ukrainians". By invading Ukraine, Putin threatens Europe. In his list of countries he thinks should be under Russian control, there are many EU countries: the Baltic states, Poland, Slovenia, etc. The invasion of Ukraine is an existential threat for the EU so it's not something on which it can back down if it has any sense.
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