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Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

wsj.com

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Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#21

Post by misja111 »

dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #3

> European governments say Mr. Putin’s gambit is to cut natural-gas supplies to inflict pain on European households and businesses so populations turn against current government policies of sanctions against Russia and support for Ukraine with weapons and financial aid. He's so terribly wrong. He doesn't know Europeans at all. There is no way people would say, "We are cold so it is fine to kill Ukrainians." How could…

I'm sorry but you're wrong. Only 46% of Germans want to stick to the plan of not using gas from Russia's new Northstream 2 pipeline when things will get more tough in the winter: https://www.stern.de/politik/deutschland/forsa-blitzumfrage-...

Most of the proponents of giving in to Putin's tempting offer are coming from the right populist AFD party or from former East Germany.

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#22

Post by actionfromafar »

goatsneez wrote: post #12
dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #3

> European governments say Mr. Putin’s gambit is to cut natural-gas supplies to inflict pain on European households and businesses so populations turn against current government policies of sanctions against Russia and support for Ukraine with weapons and financial aid. He's so terribly wrong. He doesn't know Europeans at all. There is no way people would say, "We are cold so it is fine to kill Ukrainians." How could…

The myths we live by... My remark is of a philosophical nature how a culture/society creates its myths and their role in the dynamics of elites and the subjects. None of the comments, neither the original article nor on this thread cover even 1% of the reality on the origin of the crisis (energy), nor does it explain how the current EU energy market has been developed by whom and who it keeps in power, and what might…

To be fair, many other HN comment sections on this topic have discussed exactly these questions, including the history of the current energy mix.

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#23

Post by MetalHead »

dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #3

> European governments say Mr. Putin’s gambit is to cut natural-gas supplies to inflict pain on European households and businesses so populations turn against current government policies of sanctions against Russia and support for Ukraine with weapons and financial aid. He's so terribly wrong. He doesn't know Europeans at all. There is no way people would say, "We are cold so it is fine to kill Ukrainians." How could…

No post body was provided.

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#24

Post by Ambolia »

I think the only question here is not if the EU can secure "enough gas", which I doubt it can even if the article is so sure, but at what price? And can the German industry stay competitive with those energy prices?

In case it can't, what will be the EU's future without Germany as the economic motor?

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#25

Post by Mikeb85 »

camillomiller wrote: post #14
seydor wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That s what "european governments say" that putin thinks, not what he thinks. He is always looking for ways to use EU rules against itself, and thanks to lots of regulations, EU has tied itself in a knot here. Also i don't think you re right. Europeans were fine with "let yemenis die" , and fine with "let armenians die" becuase of oil and gas respectively.

Those are not our people (non christian, non white). Ukrainians are. There is absolutely a difference that could be called racism, or more keenly it’s the fact that people are moved more by what they consider more close and similar to themselves. Just to be clear, I think that’s wrong, but I wouldn’t compare those two examples with Ukraine.

Armenians are both white and Christian. They just happen to stuck in a hard place (NATO needs Turkey and Turkey is intent on finishing their centuries-long genocide of Armenians through their proxy Azerbaijan).

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#26

Post by dvfjsdhgfv »

usedonce3rty4 wrote: post #8
dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #3

> European governments say Mr. Putin’s gambit is to cut natural-gas supplies to inflict pain on European households and businesses so populations turn against current government policies of sanctions against Russia and support for Ukraine with weapons and financial aid. He's so terribly wrong. He doesn't know Europeans at all. There is no way people would say, "We are cold so it is fine to kill Ukrainians." How could…

Sure. We all remember the solidarity EU showed among its members during the previous economic crisis and during COVID. I'm sure we're all happy to support Eurocrats again in their quest to get Ukraine in NATO for no good reason at all and -like they say- fight Putin to the last Ukrainian.

Until recently Russia was more or less neutral. Now that it showed its aggressive face and complete contempt of human lives, people are happy that it gets weaker and weaker. Yes, Ukrainians are dying, but they prefer to die rather than live under the Russian boot.

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#27

Post by jerven »

seydor wrote: post #10
dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #3

> European governments say Mr. Putin’s gambit is to cut natural-gas supplies to inflict pain on European households and businesses so populations turn against current government policies of sanctions against Russia and support for Ukraine with weapons and financial aid. He's so terribly wrong. He doesn't know Europeans at all. There is no way people would say, "We are cold so it is fine to kill Ukrainians." How could…

That s what "european governments say" that putin thinks, not what he thinks. He is always looking for ways to use EU rules against itself, and thanks to lots of regulations, EU has tied itself in a knot here. Also i don't think you re right. Europeans were fine with "let yemenis die" , and fine with "let armenians die" becuase of oil and gas respectively.

Probably, but in this case. It is also a lot of where next in line after the Ukrainians. Because if Putin thinks it is worth invading Ukraine then he thinks the same of Poland. And if successful there then Germany is next, etc.

The domino theory holds here and the only way to stop it is to make sure the current domino (Ukraine) does not fall.

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#28

Post by dvfjsdhgfv »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #25
camillomiller wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are not our people (non christian, non white). Ukrainians are. There is absolutely a difference that could be called racism, or more keenly it’s the fact that people are moved more by what they consider more close and similar to themselves. Just to be clear, I think that’s wrong, but I wouldn’t compare those two examples with Ukraine.

Armenians are both white and Christian. They just happen to stuck in a hard place (NATO needs Turkey and Turkey is intent on finishing their centuries-long genocide of Armenians through their proxy Azerbaijan).

And it would be interesting to see how it plays out as Russia refused to help Armenia - but it looks like the USA is siding with Armenia against Azerbaijan (and I don't believe it is just to make Erdogan angry).

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#29

Post by goatsneez »

actionfromafar wrote: post #22
goatsneez wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The myths we live by... My remark is of a philosophical nature how a culture/society creates its myths and their role in the dynamics of elites and the subjects. None of the comments, neither the original article nor on this thread cover even 1% of the reality on the origin of the crisis (energy), nor does it explain how the current EU energy market has been developed by whom and who it keeps in power, and what might…

To be fair, many other HN comment sections on this topic have discussed exactly these questions, including the history of the current energy mix.

Im sure there were, however, from my point of view it seems (and Im not trying to fight that, just observing) the collective "mania" and false logic predicated on tribal mentality of emotions (for emotions can be controlled unlike reasoned populace) is thoroughly hammered into the populace . So, any thread, as you point out, has the nearly identical tones, emotions, and false claims.

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#30

Post by emptysongglass »

goatsneez wrote: post #12
dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #3

> European governments say Mr. Putin’s gambit is to cut natural-gas supplies to inflict pain on European households and businesses so populations turn against current government policies of sanctions against Russia and support for Ukraine with weapons and financial aid. He's so terribly wrong. He doesn't know Europeans at all. There is no way people would say, "We are cold so it is fine to kill Ukrainians." How could…

The myths we live by... My remark is of a philosophical nature how a culture/society creates its myths and their role in the dynamics of elites and the subjects. None of the comments, neither the original article nor on this thread cover even 1% of the reality on the origin of the crisis (energy), nor does it explain how the current EU energy market has been developed by whom and who it keeps in power, and what might…

You're throwing shade without presenting "the truth" as you see it. Perhaps if you uncloaked we might better be able to judge what the truth is according to you.

The origin of the energy crisis is very clear: Germany's leaders have been instrumental in tying the cart to the horse of Russian energy for decades to the loud, repeated warnings of others. This is a crisis largely self-inflicted.

Medieval mentality is what I'd use to describe Putin's belief in conquest as an acceptable act of negotiation in the 21st century. It is not. Humanity deserves better than people who believe in annexing their neighbors. Strong, unified condemnation is how the world says no, we do not accept.

EDIT: here is just a taste of how Russians do war: they've turned Bakhmut into Mordor [1]. That is a medieval mentality.

[1] https://libreddit.tiekoetter.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/xh...

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