Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

wsj.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

11–20 of 152 posts

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#11

Post by paganel »

dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #3

> European governments say Mr. Putin’s gambit is to cut natural-gas supplies to inflict pain on European households and businesses so populations turn against current government policies of sanctions against Russia and support for Ukraine with weapons and financial aid. He's so terribly wrong. He doesn't know Europeans at all. There is no way people would say, "We are cold so it is fine to kill Ukrainians." How could…

> There is no way people would say, "We are cold so it is fine to kill Ukrainians."

We killed one of our former presidents at the execution wall because of rationalized food and cold in our homes. I am European.

And before anyone comes in and says: "you killed Ceausescu because you wanted communism deposed!". No, we didn't, we wanted "communism" that would provide us with food in the stores and heat in our homes, "communism with a human face", as they were calling it. That's why at the 1990 general elections we overwhelmingly elected a former Communist Party apparatchik.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_and_execution_of_Nicolae...

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#12

Post by goatsneez »

dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #3

> European governments say Mr. Putin’s gambit is to cut natural-gas supplies to inflict pain on European households and businesses so populations turn against current government policies of sanctions against Russia and support for Ukraine with weapons and financial aid. He's so terribly wrong. He doesn't know Europeans at all. There is no way people would say, "We are cold so it is fine to kill Ukrainians." How could…

The myths we live by...

My remark is of a philosophical nature how a culture/society creates its myths and their role in the dynamics of elites and the subjects. None of the comments, neither the original article nor on this thread cover even 1% of the reality on the origin of the crisis (energy), nor does it explain how the current EU energy market has been developed by whom and who it keeps in power, and what might be the solution (bashing Putin and puffin our proverbial chest is not it I know that much).

How such medieval mentality that we display here and in general media (us vs Putin) is so pervasive gives little hope that we even care to know the truth, care for real solution, or even care for ourselves. There is just so much to unpack that there is no chance here from such a simple sentence.

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#13

Post by eurasiantiger »

Helmut10001 wrote: post #4
dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #3

> European governments say Mr. Putin’s gambit is to cut natural-gas supplies to inflict pain on European households and businesses so populations turn against current government policies of sanctions against Russia and support for Ukraine with weapons and financial aid. He's so terribly wrong. He doesn't know Europeans at all. There is no way people would say, "We are cold so it is fine to kill Ukrainians." How could…

Correct, the best way to unite a group is to attack its core values - a sure way to bring people together. If we, as Europeans, allow Russia to proceed, just to stay warm in winter, we'd give up on our core values, which are what makes us a democratic Europe.

Which is why Europe (and the US) have been instituted with so many divisive movements in the recent decade.

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#14

Post by camillomiller »

seydor wrote: post #10
dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #3

> European governments say Mr. Putin’s gambit is to cut natural-gas supplies to inflict pain on European households and businesses so populations turn against current government policies of sanctions against Russia and support for Ukraine with weapons and financial aid. He's so terribly wrong. He doesn't know Europeans at all. There is no way people would say, "We are cold so it is fine to kill Ukrainians." How could…

That s what "european governments say" that putin thinks, not what he thinks. He is always looking for ways to use EU rules against itself, and thanks to lots of regulations, EU has tied itself in a knot here. Also i don't think you re right. Europeans were fine with "let yemenis die" , and fine with "let armenians die" becuase of oil and gas respectively.

Those are not our people (non christian, non white). Ukrainians are. There is absolutely a difference that could be called racism, or more keenly it’s the fact that people are moved more by what they consider more close and similar to themselves.

Just to be clear, I think that’s wrong, but I wouldn’t compare those two examples with Ukraine.

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#15

Post by phtrivier »

dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #3

> European governments say Mr. Putin’s gambit is to cut natural-gas supplies to inflict pain on European households and businesses so populations turn against current government policies of sanctions against Russia and support for Ukraine with weapons and financial aid. He's so terribly wrong. He doesn't know Europeans at all. There is no way people would say, "We are cold so it is fine to kill Ukrainians." How could…

The comment section of every article about the energy crisis, as well as the counter of every bar, has a few people going the exact route of "we never voted for fighting for Ukraine, they're far away, this is all USA using us as pawn, why would we be cold for them, etc..." Some of those people might actually be real humans as opposed to Russian bots.

So far, they seem to be a minority. The hardliners wanting us to go all in the fight are an even smaller minority. The vast majority are attentist (as usual), and governments (at least mine) are printing all the money they can to pay for energy bills, to avoid reaching a tipping point of discontentment.

I agree with you that Putin might have underestimated the capacity of EU members to support each other and Ukraine against his game of on and off with gas.

I also would not cry victory against "General Winter" on the 19th of September.

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#16

Post by ivan_gammel »

WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #6
dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #3

> European governments say Mr. Putin’s gambit is to cut natural-gas supplies to inflict pain on European households and businesses so populations turn against current government policies of sanctions against Russia and support for Ukraine with weapons and financial aid. He's so terribly wrong. He doesn't know Europeans at all. There is no way people would say, "We are cold so it is fine to kill Ukrainians." How could…

It’s a lot more complicated to be honest. There are different ways to end the conflicts and different degrees of support possible. Some European countries were in favour of pushing for peace talks far earlier but the current Ukrainian government has complete support from the USA and territorial ambition of its own. Belligerents are not into it out of the goodness of their heart you know. It’s not really about saving…

The longer is the war the higher is the risk for the local population on occupied territories. Not only because of filtration and direct oppression by security forces, but also because of reduced access to healthcare and basic necessities like food, heating, drinking water etc. The winter is coming and the infrastructure in many cities and villages is completely destroyed. Russia does not demonstrate any intent to rebuild it in next few months.

EDIT: „the longer is occupation..“ will be more correct. This is an incentive for liberation more than for negotiation.

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#17

Post by actionfromafar »

WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #6
dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #3

> European governments say Mr. Putin’s gambit is to cut natural-gas supplies to inflict pain on European households and businesses so populations turn against current government policies of sanctions against Russia and support for Ukraine with weapons and financial aid. He's so terribly wrong. He doesn't know Europeans at all. There is no way people would say, "We are cold so it is fine to kill Ukrainians." How could…

It’s a lot more complicated to be honest. There are different ways to end the conflicts and different degrees of support possible. Some European countries were in favour of pushing for peace talks far earlier but the current Ukrainian government has complete support from the USA and territorial ambition of its own. Belligerents are not into it out of the goodness of their heart you know. It’s not really about saving…

Peace talks earlier would maybe have saved lives, but what kind of life is it living under Russian rule?

Russia is deteriorating and is apparently trying to solve it with conquest. Giving in would be like telling the police to don't disturb the mob when doing extortion, someone might get killed.

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#18

Post by Traubenfuchs »

dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #3

> European governments say Mr. Putin’s gambit is to cut natural-gas supplies to inflict pain on European households and businesses so populations turn against current government policies of sanctions against Russia and support for Ukraine with weapons and financial aid. He's so terribly wrong. He doesn't know Europeans at all. There is no way people would say, "We are cold so it is fine to kill Ukrainians." How could…

> He doesn't know Europeans at all.

A few days ago I walked past very loud protests of people demanding peace and good relationships with Russia, in Vienna.

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#19

Post by kstenerud »

vixen99 wrote: post #7
dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #3

> European governments say Mr. Putin’s gambit is to cut natural-gas supplies to inflict pain on European households and businesses so populations turn against current government policies of sanctions against Russia and support for Ukraine with weapons and financial aid. He's so terribly wrong. He doesn't know Europeans at all. There is no way people would say, "We are cold so it is fine to kill Ukrainians." How could…

Expensive solution even so. In Romania (One of Europe's poorest countries) this month's price for a kilowatt is 57 cents (if you use > 300 kw per month on average). The UK price is about 36 pence per kw (41 cents).

It's going up to 36 cents in Germany come October. I've proactively replaced some perfectly functional but energy guzzling equipment with modern efficient ones, and it has dropped my consumption by over 30%, which will more than negate the energy cost increase. The break-even cost on them ranges from 1-4 years.

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#20

Post by dijit »

dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #3

> European governments say Mr. Putin’s gambit is to cut natural-gas supplies to inflict pain on European households and businesses so populations turn against current government policies of sanctions against Russia and support for Ukraine with weapons and financial aid. He's so terribly wrong. He doesn't know Europeans at all. There is no way people would say, "We are cold so it is fine to kill Ukrainians." How could…

That is how it works.

That’s what we assume will work when we apply sanctions on Russia.

If it was less serious, if it wasn’t in our faces that innocent people were dying, if it was something “far away” and “complicated” and not so one-sided. It would work.

Some (perhaps most) people are extremely selfish, even when it’s detrimental to themselves; you see it all the time with people not leaving enough space to collect luggage at the baggage claim at the airport, meaning everyone can’t see their bags and they can’t retrieve them without a kerfuffle anyway, or in the same way that everyone rushes to get off of a plane even when they prevent someone else from leaving who then will also be unable to leave causing an awkward deadlock.

People are gloriously selfish, and if you hit them in a place that affects them directly: they will turn.

The only reason we’re not is because it’s too close and too devastating for us to turn our eyes away.

Post reply on HN