Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service • Hacker News Board

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#791

Post by ce4 » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 9:31 PM UTC

_dain_ wrote: post #758

ce4 wrote: post #749

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You got that wrong. No one was censored by CF, because you dont need CF to have an internet appearance. If anything, it's the DDoS attacks that are censoring KF. But in the end it just got more expensive for KF to speak.

CF outright blocked the KF domain, they didn't just rescind DDoS protection. and deliberately not protecting a paying customer as they are attacked by DDoSing criminals is just censorship by another name. it's a critical piece of infrastructure; large sites just can't survive on the modern internet without it. it's like if the police and fire services announced they wouldn't protect a specific house from roving packs…

Well, no, that's not how it works. They stopped business with KF by not forwarding traffic to the protected/secret origin anymore, thats how reverse proxies work. The owner of the domain is free to update their DNS records and point it to another CDN or even the unprotected origin

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#792

Post by threatofrain » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 9:32 PM UTC

cowtools wrote: post #523

ChicagoDave wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know the entire history here, but my understanding is that KF was a forum where doxing and swatting was openly pervasive. Sounds like a perfect example of society holding a site accountable and producing the correct outcome. There was no government involved, so it's not a "free speech" issue. I always talk about the wild west of the late 90's when the Internet was brand new. My colleagues and I all talked abo…

Free speech is more than just an amendment to the constitution. It is also a doctrine that knowledge and discussion should generally be free, and that people shouldn't be persecuted for their beliefs. It used to be that all forums had pervasive doxxing and swatting. People didn't use to have public internet identities like they do today- probably because there wasn't any way to profit from owning a public identity or…

From a policy perspective I find it extremely problematic to say that CloudFlare is an essential part of modern free speech. If we say that free speech is shouting from a publicly funded street corner, that's one thing. But it's quite another to say that free speech requires expensive engineers, infrastructure, and energy expenditure, all funded by an American business.

If we want public squares, why then do we not pay for it with public money? Furthermore, is it not incredibly problematic that private companies are such an important pillar of free speech in an international context? Is CloudFlare essential for German free speech?

And most importantly, what about the freedom of association as a moral principle? How does an individual's freedom to speak weigh against another's capacity to say "leave me alone?" At the extreme, we might see that in a small town, if enough people disassociate from you then freedom of speech is no longer the top issue. The top issue becomes whether you can even live. So which of these ideal rights are most weighty, and how ought they interact with other rights?

What determines that freedom of association is subordinate to the freedom of speech in an X society?

On a more technical question, what is stopping Kiwi Farms from gathering on the many private forums which exist around the world? There's 4chan, Reddit, TruthSocial, or Facebook. CloudFlare was not a host in this context, it was a DDOS protection service, which is indirectly a wallet protection service. Who will be DDOS'ing Facebook's wallet?

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#793

Post by noslenwerdna » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 9:32 PM UTC

weare138 wrote: post #215

that_guy_iain wrote: post #45

The thing is, it's hard to feel bad for kiwifarms. They seem to be one of the worst sites there are. But freedom of speech/expression/opinions aren't about defending those who speech/expression/opinions you like but all of them. Personally, I think the site being shutdown is a good thing. But it's hard to look at the fact a few corporations can remove a website from the internet and think this is good for a free and…

3 people are dead because of that site. What they were doing was a crime. Criminal activity is not is not protected free speech. That's like arguing carding and SIM swapping sites are just expressing their right to free speech and should be protected.

If they committed a crime, let the authorities deal with it. Committing another crime (DDoSing a website) is hardly the answer. Vigilantism is also a crime.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#794

Post by bastardoperator » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 9:33 PM UTC

cowtools wrote: post #757

bastardoperator wrote: post #725

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first amendment is designed to protect people from government. That's it. It's beyond clear in its text. Courts have ruled time and time again finding speech that harms people is most certainly not protected. We have laws that deal with slander, libel, harassment, and speech that does not pass the clear and present danger clause does meet the criteria for "free" speech. I don't understand how anyone can look at t…

I believe that free speech, as a doctrine, is an intrinsic good. It is that simple. I think the late Aaron Swartz describes my stance on free speech as a doctrine and moral principle: http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/becausewecan The status of the law has no influence on my stance on morality. Legality neither sufficient nor necessary for morality. The existence of slavery was once legal, was that sufficient to make it…

You believe I should be able to engage in hate speech and harass people and that CF has an obligation to help me in that endeavor? Bruh...

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#795

Post by JumpCrisscross » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 9:36 PM UTC

fluoridation wrote: post #785

TechSquidTV wrote: post #623

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dont understand this post, it seems so backwards. Are we upset that a social harm has been deplatformed by a private company by simply choosing to not serve them? No one has prevented Kiwifarms from being on the internet, in fact that isn't even really possible. Free speech is working as intended. There is legally nothing wrong with saying what you want on the internet, but that doesn't mean everyone else needs to…

Let's hope you abide by this standard if the same happens to a site you care about.

> Let's hope you abide by this standard if the same happens to a site you care about

Gladly. We need more competition in the space anyway [1].

[1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/985443/worldwide-ddos-bo...

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#796

Post by worried4future » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 9:37 PM UTC

fullstop wrote: post #497

mynameishere wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you cannot define a term, you should not use it. I'm surprised that you're so honest about your irrationality, though. Normally, you would "define" hate speech as follows: "Weasel term, weasel term, weasel term" and that would be that. I would define hate speech as speech that directs hatred at a particular group. For instance, Joe Biden recently gave a state speech (The "Gates of Hell" speech) that was completely…

Look, man, if you can't agree that people shouldn't target, harass and doxx people then we have no common ground to continue this conversation.

I don't think we should target, harass and doxx people, therefore I do not do those things. That doesn't mean that I think we should censor entire websites because they are sometimes used as platforms to do those kinds of things.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#797

Post by julianbuse » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 9:38 PM UTC

spoonjim wrote: post #387

goldenchrome wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think 4chan is next. I believe the site has staying power because its users are anonymous. Anonymity means it’s very difficult for leaders to emerge which means it’s difficult to rally behind a particular cause. This means it’s difficult for 4chan to grow in influence as an organized force. It’s just a steady state of low-level chaos, which is good for containment. I’m also quite confident that the FBI monito…

Speaking from personal experience, when a “bad” forum is shut down the members are not usually successful in spreading their toxicity into other areas. Sadly it sort of just dies.

sadly?

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#798

Post by pixl97 » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 9:39 PM UTC

wizofaus wrote: post #496

pixl97 wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also I am almost certain if you were using your natural gas utility to shoot flames at the neighbors houses, or using your power to electrocute people walking by, that you'd have your service disconnected rather quickly until it was proved you're not a public harm.

Were you actually electrocuting them I'm fairly sure you'd end up in gaol before having to deal with service disconnection.

While from my original post it's assumed it was intentional malice creating the dangerous situation, but there plenty of real world situations where service is disconnected for safety reasons.

We act like utilities are some inalienable right, but this is by far the worst argument ever. Licensed installers setup the utilities and have the work inspected. At any point where your environment presents a hazard, the utilities will be disconnected until it passes another inspection.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#799

Post by worried4future » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 9:39 PM UTC

dmatech wrote: post #435

fullstop wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kevin has been hammering on them for many days now, and for good reason. Everyone has a different line in the sand. For me, a platform designed to promote hate speech crosses that line.

Sadly, I've had to block him and all the other people on this self-righteous authoritarian crusade and don't think I'll ever interact with them again. Most of the security community (and larger technology community) used to care a lot about free speech, but they've completely abandoned that principle.

> larger technology community) used to care a lot about free speech, but they've completely abandoned that principle

I agree and I'm very worried for it.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#800

Post by ngetchell » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 9:41 PM UTC

smsm42 wrote: post #783

ngetchell wrote: post #771

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ACLU would fight for the Nazi marches against the government. These are private companies adjusting their priorities as a result of other people using their free speech rights.

Would they? I don't think they would any more. Any recent examples? > as a result of other people using their free speech rights. Running a DDoS is really stretching the definition of "using their free speech rights", I think. But firing you from a job or closing your bank account for saying wrong things is "private companies adjusting their priorities" too. I wonder how long you could make a living if you can't use…

Nobody is saying the DDoS is free speech. That is a criminal act. The free speech is the people sharing their displeasure with CloudFlare that are using it.