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Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

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Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#491

Post by bitwize »

DuskStar wrote: post #300
leereeves wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

The Germans came for the Nazis. The Weimar Republic was very much in favor of imprisoning them for their (detestable) ideals and proposals. The Nazis were able to parlay this persecution (and Weimar failures) into an increasing share of the electorate and eventually total control.

This is what my critics who say things like "lol, we know you're for censorship" don't understand. The Nazi movement rose because they were free to express their vile ideology. Germany prevented renazification for 80 years through censorship.

This was what Marcuse was getting at in "Repressive Tolerance". Some views deserve free expression. Others do not. If you give free expression to all perspectives, the vile ones will spread until you can't control them anymore, and then you're no longer a tolerant society but a repressive one.

We have the means and now the will to identify vile speech online and shut it down at the network level.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#492

Post by yanderekko »

MichaelCollins wrote: post #391
yanderekko wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I think because some of us look at Internet access or phone service as akin to water or electricity service. You just don't deprive someone of those things. I agree that trying to cancel people from being able to enjoy baseline physical necessities is not a line that's being crossed yet, but an attack on utilities may not necessitate this. Let's say Joshua Moon also happened to run a small hobby store in a strip mal…

Anything is fair game when the ends justify the means and the target is accused of killing people on your side. The only reason power companies aren't yet subject to pressure to disconnect bad people is because that tactic is presently judged as infeasible. They absolutely will ask landlords to kick somebody out. If it becomes known that you're renting a spare room to a neonazi who's become infamous to twitter, don't…

>If it becomes known that you're renting a spare room to a neonazi who's become infamous to twitter, don't expect to stay out of the fray.

Do you have any examples of this line being crossed? I mean I'm sure that oftentimes the mob has raised these issues to landlords and managed to get leases revoked, but I haven't seen an actual serious attempt to attack an unresponsive landlord in the way we've seen with the attack on Cloudflare.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#493

Post by ALittleLight »

1ris wrote: post #430
ALittleLight wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not countable, but vastly more than three. There are civil wars and ethnic cleansing that get organized and supported on Facebook (e.g. Ethiopia and Myanmar). Gang violence and mass murder also get spread on Facebook. Nevermind the harassment and bullying that happens on Facebook, which is, of course, orders of magnitude more than what goes on on KF. It's just not very sensible to think that big companies care a…

Intent is the key ingredient to crime (or other behaviours society does not tolerate). You totally ignore this.

Oh, I see. Thank you for clearing this up for me. When big, rich, powerful companies get people killed they didn't intend to, so, actually, no harm done. When big, rich, powerful companies accuse a small community of getting someone killed obviously they did intend to do it and so they need to be shut down.

Very illuminating!

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#494

Post by squeaky-clean »

throwayyy479087 wrote: post #312
phillipcarter wrote: post #289

Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences. Good to see it.

Freedom of speech for speech you hate is also a social principle - see the ACLU Klan cases. Principles aren't supposed to be easy to keep, otherwise they're hobbies.

Freedom of Speech also means Cloudflare doesn't have to host anyone it doesn't want to.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#495

Post by bioemerl »

stark98 wrote: post #401
bioemerl wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The correct answer is to be having regular discussions with your kids about what they're doing online, and occasionally log into their accounts, having access to their usernames so that you can do it, so that you know what they're up to. Probably not as necessary once they're like 15 or so, but up that age do not let them be on there on their own. And, of course, make sure they know critical thinking and discuss ever…

> log into their accounts, having access to their usernames so that you can do it, so that you know what they're up to. Wouldn't it damage the trust between you and your child? I think even monitoring internet usage in-person or outright restricting access to potentially dangerous websites would be less intrusive. If your kid discovers you can access their messages at any time, it would make them more inclined to mak…

The only way that's going to damage your trust with your kid is if you are secret about it. Show them and tell them that you're getting onto their accounts. They could even be sitting in the room with you.

Eventually you have to stop doing this, they have to grow up, but especially when they're very young it is very important that you're actually on their account because they don't know enough to see and report when something harmful is going on.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#496

Post by wizofaus »

pixl97 wrote: post #386
kelnos wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think because some of us look at Internet access or phone service as akin to water or electricity service. You just don't deprive someone of those things. Regarding your Netflix example, I doubt Netflix knows if any particular customer is a terrorist. Having access to a CDN provider isn't in the same "basic rights" league.

Also I am almost certain if you were using your natural gas utility to shoot flames at the neighbors houses, or using your power to electrocute people walking by, that you'd have your service disconnected rather quickly until it was proved you're not a public harm.

Were you actually electrocuting them I'm fairly sure you'd end up in gaol before having to deal with service disconnection.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#497

Post by fullstop »

mynameishere wrote: post #408
fullstop wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not here to define hate speech, and I think that you'd agree that HN was not designed to encourage and promote hate speech. You absolutely can not say the same thing of Kiwifarms. Let's not be deliberately obtuse here.

If you cannot define a term, you should not use it. I'm surprised that you're so honest about your irrationality, though. Normally, you would "define" hate speech as follows: "Weasel term, weasel term, weasel term" and that would be that. I would define hate speech as speech that directs hatred at a particular group. For instance, Joe Biden recently gave a state speech (The "Gates of Hell" speech) that was completely…

Look, man, if you can't agree that people shouldn't target, harass and doxx people then we have no common ground to continue this conversation.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#498

Post by cowtools »

KptMarchewa wrote: post #477
philippejara wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not reddit, calm down on the snark and try to actually have a discussion if you're gonna go for it. Its easy to say those things for someone you dislike, but zoom out and look at the implications, you have a campaign pretty much asking cloudflare to stand aside and allow them to do DDOS attacks on a website which apparently won several lawsuits against them already(ill dig up the sources a bit later on when I…

> This is not reddit, calm down on the snark and try to actually have a discussion if you're gonna go for it. Like the slippery slope of dropping terrorist harrasser site being "extremely scary" is actually an attempt of discussion, right?

You could call any politically-adjacent forum a "terrorist harasser" site. Is Wikileaks not a "terrorist harasser site" in the 9/11-era rhetoric?

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#499

Post by phillipcarter »

birdboy2000 wrote: post #464
phillipcarter wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Act like an asshole and you end up getting taken down. Who could have guessed? Ah, but you see, there's a lot of right-wing HN posters here who disagree with this. They believe that acting terrible should be free from all consequences, social or legal, because ... well, I won't speculate.

Hard to think of that many positions more right-wing than "corporate monopolies should be able to disappear anything you say on a whim with no safeguards" but that's the one you're endorsing. Would it kill you to have any sort of critical analysis of power for once in your life? KF are scum but they're far from the only scum in this fight, and others are infinitely more dangerous

> Would it kill you to have any sort of critical analysis of power for once in your life?

You seem angry. Have you considered addressing that?

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#500

Post by ratsmack »

inquirerGeneral wrote: post #449
spurgelaurels wrote: post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This wasn't just due to Twitter outrage. People are actually being targeted and harmed through this site. Hate and harm are not covered under free speech.

Quoted post unavailable.

It seems that this is accepted behavior with the large corporate internet infrastructure companies, though. There are many in powerful government positions worldwide that applaud this behavior, because it is in vogue.
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