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Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

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Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#381

This, I think, is a useful perspective for all those here talking about free speech: https://slate.com/technology/2022/09/kiwi-farms-cloudlfare-a... The point is that if you're using your speech to silence people, not by disproving their arguments but through terror and the destruction of their reputation and social network, when you silence people by lying about them, your speech is a threat to free speech. By prote…

I don't see kiwifarms trying to silence keffals, I 100% see the reverse happening unless archiving keffals public statement about giving children drugs you aren't authorized to provide to anyone is somehow censorship.

And on Kiwifarms I can go learn optimal ways to commit suicide, of which several methods involve drugs. Do you think null does KYC do children can’t view that? Doubt it. You are clearly biased.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if that were true, and I think it's pretty doubtful to just attribute a suicide to some people who made fun of or harassed the deceased, it's a criminal or civil matter. If people on that forum committed a crime, let them face the legal penalties. Why should the website be made persona non grata by Internet companies? How many more are dead from activities on Facebook, Instagram, etc? Why is it that big business…

So how many more are dead from Facebook etc?

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Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#383
post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kevin has been hammering on them for many days now, and for good reason. Everyone has a different line in the sand. For me, a platform designed to promote hate speech crosses that line.

Great, my line is people like you. Please disconnect from the internet. See the problem?

I am not asking for any of these people, specifically, to be removed from the internet. I am saying that I support cloudflare banning hosts which specifically target, harass, and doxx specific individuals or communities.

I'm not supportive of banning Joshua Moon from the internet. Do you agree that there is a difference here?

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My headcanon is that Price wanted to take a stand, but the legal team actually took a better look at the situation because of the pressure and had a long meeting, explaining to him why it's a really bad idea. I hope we learn what really happened in a few years. Reason: twice I sent messages directly to appropriate teams at (large-companies) with something like "are you aware of what your ceo is doing at (link)" which…

Legal? I think you mean PR team. They realized it would have an impact on income. There was obviously no legal issue.

I'm not sure that it was PR. It is quite popular to be consistent and defend anybody who isn't convicted of a crime. If you are choosing to get CDN / DDOS protection and are running any site that may not be the most popular do you want to go with the company that bends their knee when the internet comes calling?

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#385
post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I didn't know about this site until yesterday. It's interesting that your takeaway in light of this knowledge is a strategy that totally misses keeping your children away from the forum responsible for three suicides [0]. [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiwi_Farms#Suicides_of_harassm...

Why not both?

That's my question to the OP.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#386
post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What doesn’t make sense to me is why is Cloudflare harassed for providing an utility to some bad actors while other traditional providers aren’t? Is Comcast getting any flak for providing internet to the KKK offices? Or their water provider? Is Netflix getting any complains for providing entertainment to terrorists? Or vodafone for mobile connectivity? Why is it different for cloudflare?

I think because some of us look at Internet access or phone service as akin to water or electricity service. You just don't deprive someone of those things. Regarding your Netflix example, I doubt Netflix knows if any particular customer is a terrorist. Having access to a CDN provider isn't in the same "basic rights" league.

Also I am almost certain if you were using your natural gas utility to shoot flames at the neighbors houses, or using your power to electrocute people walking by, that you'd have your service disconnected rather quickly until it was proved you're not a public harm.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#387

Is it too early to say the internet is done for because it's looking that way to me. keffals has given the government the recipe to kill off any website they want gone. I'm hearing that keffals creatures are now attacking TOR to get them to drop kiwi too. This isn't going to stop, 4chan is definitely next then every other site that isn't mainstream.

I don’t think 4chan is next. I believe the site has staying power because its users are anonymous. Anonymity means it’s very difficult for leaders to emerge which means it’s difficult to rally behind a particular cause. This means it’s difficult for 4chan to grow in influence as an organized force. It’s just a steady state of low-level chaos, which is good for containment. I’m also quite confident that the FBI monito…

Speaking from personal experience, when a “bad” forum is shut down the members are not usually successful in spreading their toxicity into other areas. Sadly it sort of just dies.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What doesn’t make sense to me is why is Cloudflare harassed for providing an utility to some bad actors while other traditional providers aren’t? Is Comcast getting any flak for providing internet to the KKK offices? Or their water provider? Is Netflix getting any complains for providing entertainment to terrorists? Or vodafone for mobile connectivity? Why is it different for cloudflare?

Cloudflare caches and rehosts content. Their services actively facilitate the distribution of their customers' website contents.

So does an ISP?

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3 people are dead because of that site. What they were doing was a crime. Criminal activity is not is not protected free speech. That's like arguing carding and SIM swapping sites are just expressing their right to free speech and should be protected.

Even if that were true, and I think it's pretty doubtful to just attribute a suicide to some people who made fun of or harassed the deceased, it's a criminal or civil matter. If people on that forum committed a crime, let them face the legal penalties. Why should the website be made persona non grata by Internet companies? How many more are dead from activities on Facebook, Instagram, etc? Why is it that big business…

KF was made _for_ harassment, that's very different.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#390

Kiwifarm's owner statement: https://web.archive.org/web/20220905182626/https://poa.st/no... This whole thing is kinda fascinating, if not extremely scary. After learning about the situation from the last couple threads here and going down the rabbit hole of sources, the future of the internet seems pretty sad... If cloudflare doesn't reinstate the website after dealing with said immediate danger they claimed was the…

Did you ever watch 12 Angry Men? There's a scene in that movie where an unabashedly racist man is making his point as loudly and angrily as he can. One by one, all the others in the room turn their backs on him. When only one man is left, that man has a short message for the racist: "Sit down, and don't open your mouth again while I'm here."

Nobody puts him in jail. Nobody takes away his right to make a living or his children or his home. They just send a clear message: Don't bring that sort of thing around here. Don't bring it around us. There's no point in engaging in a dialogue with that person. Sure, you allow them to speak, in that you don't respond to that speech with violence or prosecution. But you don't have to make room for it.

We can't and shouldn't have the government stepping in to say what speech is or is not allowed. And in the United States, we don't. Russia is another matter, but as the post says, the idea that that means every Russian person or company is OK with things this awful is not true.

What that means, though, is that if there are sentiments so odious (and in some cases, literally dangerous, but not illegal) that our free society doesn't think it's appropriate to support a venue for their discussion, it's up to that society writ large, not government, to limit that discussion. There is nothing wrong with fostering a societal sense that there is no room in our world for the kind of shit that Kiwi Farms spewed, even if it is legal. There is nothing wrong with expecting large companies to live up to that standard.

So I don't see this as scary, at all. I see it as a relief. I see it as a free society working the way it's supposed to, with some caveats. (I still don't love how much power large corporate entities have, but not for this reason, exactly.) And I think there are a lot of people out there whose lives are safer because of it.

Edit: For people who haven't seen it, here's the scene I reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXlHKTPfLVA

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