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Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

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Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#671

Post by phantom_of_cato »

judge2020 wrote: post #658
phantom_of_cato wrote: post #624

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> companies can speak with the police and follow their wishes regardless of the first amendment because Twitter's own protected speech allows them to block any content for any reason, whether that be "it violated our content on harassment" or "the police don't like it and we're voluntarily following their wishes". Even if that wasn't against the First Amendment (which is a more complicated issue [1]), that wouldn't f…

Companies generally already do this with non-FISA "National Security Letter Requests" - Apple received between 1 and 499 between January and June 2021[0], and Google received between 500 – 999 in the same time frame[1]. Of course, this is nothing like allowing arbitrary content censorship in collaboration with law enforcement, which would indeed trigger a lot more outrage and bad PR. 0: https://www.apple.com/legal/tr…

Not really. National Security Letters [1] are for requesting data, not censorship. And of course, they are also controversial. Many of us consider the PATRIOT act a disaster.

[1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_security_letter

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#672

Post by bioemerl »

SinParadise wrote: post #662
bioemerl wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This ability to "deplatform" is also what allows fascist nations to exist and keeps Putin in power today in Russia.

Sure, a gun can also kill an innocent man or neo-Hitler. We just need to make sure that it is applied more on the latter and less on the former.

In civil society you generally aren't allowed to run around shooting anyone.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#673

Post by that_guy_iain »

ALittleLight wrote: post #625
favorited wrote: post #597

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think it's pretty doubtful to just attribute a suicide to some people who made fun of or harassed the deceased Near literally said he was committing suicide due to the abuse from Kiwi Farms. If you're doubtful, it's because you're willfully ignorant. https://twitter.com/near_koukai/status/1408986839743037448

Not even the tweet you linked says this. The person says they have been depressed and mocked their entire life and that they have tried therapy and medication and that it did not work. That seems much more like a depressed person driven to suicide than a forum being responsible for responsible for their death.

He did go on to say that if the KiwiFarms founder/owner/whatever had been more compassionate he would have carried on.

https://twitter.com/near_koukai/status/1408986855014428672

It could be guilting those who harrassed and bullied him. But it's probably just highlighting how bad it was for him.

To me, it's pretty clear KiwiFarms were a major contributing factor to their sucide.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#674

Post by daveguy »

philippejara wrote: post #336

Kiwifarm's owner statement: https://web.archive.org/web/20220905182626/https://poa.st/no... This whole thing is kinda fascinating, if not extremely scary. After learning about the situation from the last couple threads here and going down the rabbit hole of sources, the future of the internet seems pretty sad... If cloudflare doesn't reinstate the website after dealing with said immediate danger they claimed was the…

Hopefully there will always be enough screaming on the internet to take down a doxxing operation.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#675

Post by burnte »

cowtools wrote: post #523
ChicagoDave wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know the entire history here, but my understanding is that KF was a forum where doxing and swatting was openly pervasive. Sounds like a perfect example of society holding a site accountable and producing the correct outcome. There was no government involved, so it's not a "free speech" issue. I always talk about the wild west of the late 90's when the Internet was brand new. My colleagues and I all talked abo…

Free speech is more than just an amendment to the constitution. It is also a doctrine that knowledge and discussion should generally be free, and that people shouldn't be persecuted for their beliefs. It used to be that all forums had pervasive doxxing and swatting. People didn't use to have public internet identities like they do today- probably because there wasn't any way to profit from owning a public identity or…

> Free speech is more than just an amendment to the constitution. It is also a doctrine that knowledge and discussion should generally be free, and that people shouldn't be persecuted for their beliefs.

Should be persecuted BY THE GOVERNMENT. At no point has any nation held that all people should be able to say whatever they want at any time with zero repercussions from anywhere. You can yell in a crowded theater, and they can kick you out. If you yell "fire" and cause a panic, you're arrested for the panic, not the fact you spoke, but for the fact you put people in potential danger. But if you only yell some racial slur, for example, no one will arrest you for the slur, but you can be asked to leave the theater and never return because that's private property.

Freedom of speech is not and has never been freedom from consequences.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#676

Post by anigbrowl »

birdboy2000 wrote: post #504
ceejayoz wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Speech is ingrained in American culture on both aisles of the political spectrum until last 5-10 years. Death threats, fraud, harassment, libel, and other harmful forms of speech have had legal consequences for much longer than that.

then prosecute them, don't let corporate monopolies play judge, jury, and executioner

'Just go to the state monopoly instead and hope they're responsive' is a poor strategy. As is well established in law, cops and prosecutors aren't obliged to protect yu even though they have vast legal immunity of their own.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#677

Post by jakelazaroff »

mikl wrote: post #657
jakelazaroff wrote: post #543

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cloudflare and DDoS-Guard aren’t themselves DDoSing KF, though. They are just turning their backs. If KF wanted their continued protection, they could have stopped stalking and harassing people. But they didn’t, so here we are. And of course I wouldn’t be happy if a website I support were DDoSed. It’s perfectly consistent to celebrate when a murderer gets convicted and be outraged when an innocent person does. There’…

No one’s saying they are. But Cloudflare enjoys a virtual monopoly on affordable and reliable DDoS protection, and that is a very unhealthy thing for the open Internet. If you operate an online business and your comptetitors can somehow convince Cloudflare to drop you, they can have you taken offline, permanently, by paying a pittance to have you DDoS'ed.

I don’t think you can fairly call them a monopoly. It took me like three minutes to come up with seven different competitors offering DDoS protection. And that’s just top-of-mind companies, without even doing research into anyone I might not know offhand.

- https://www.fastly.com/products/ddos-mitigation

- https://aws.amazon.com/shield/

- https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/azure/ddos-protection/ddos-...

- https://www.akamai.com/solutions/security/ddos-protection

- https://cloud.google.com/armor

- https://www.ibm.com/cloud/cloud-internet-services

- https://www.rackspace.com/response/rackspace-ddos-mitigation...

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#678

Post by joe_the_user »

nemo44x wrote: post #28

Real principled stance there from their CEO - 3 days to totally flip-flop? I mean, if your stance is we will ban content we arbitrarily find bad then just state it as such. Put into your agreement terms precisely what is and isn’t allowed. Be consistent. This “conflicted” act makes them look weak and of questionable leadership. Either take a principled stance on speech or put into your terms how you censor speech.

Real principled stance there from their CEO - 3 days to totally flip-flop? I mean, if your stance is we will ban content we arbitrarily find bad then just state it as such.

The thing is that just about every company and individual is going to have the caveat "be bad enough and I won't deal with you" in practice. Kiwi Farms is pretty horrible but you could have an even more awful site - say real murder for hire - and it would be dropped even faster.

Do really expect someone to offer a "principled position" that no matter the real world consequences, they'll never stand against some horror getting out onto the Internet?

Edit: I want to add that Cloudflair's original statement and it's recent statement have involved a consistent point of "we shouldn't be the one to suppress this" which is fundamentally different from "nothing should be done about these problems". They're basically saying "we should be doing this but we should be doing this based on a court order rather than on our own". Which is to say there are never any "free speech fundamentalism" in these statements.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#680

Post by richbell »

squabbles wrote: post #71
_dain_ wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

You're right, but people don't care about the truth. Personally I doubt that keffals is behind the attacks, since the site has been facing them for ages. A site like the KiwiFarms that compiles unsavory deeds is going to attract the ire of those same people who will do unsavory things to get that information hidden.

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