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Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service
541–550 of 1001 posts
Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service
#542Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I didn't know about this site until yesterday. It's interesting that your takeaway in light of this knowledge is a strategy that totally misses keeping your children away from the forum responsible for three suicides [0]. [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiwi_Farms#Suicides_of_harassm...
Missing the point entirely. That forum was public. The discord servers, where unknown adults are advising teenagers on sexuality and DIY hormone therapy is private.
It's not really clear what your point is. Surely you aren't saying that your strategy is to allow your kids on any online site as long as it's public, but that's the only clarification you've provided here.
Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service
#543Earlier quoted context omitted.
Did you ever watch 12 Angry Men ? There's a scene in that movie where an unabashedly racist man is making his point as loudly and angrily as he can. One by one, all the others in the room turn their backs on him. When only one man is left, that man has a short message for the racist: "Sit down, and don't open your mouth again while I'm here." Nobody puts him in jail. Nobody takes away his right to make a living or hi…
DDoS’ing is quite different from just turning your back on someone. It’s more akin to following someone around with a megaphone and shouting over everything they say so no one can hear them. Sure, you might celebrate when that’s done to someone you dislike, but a lot less appealing if you imagine it done to a cause you agree with.
Cloudflare and DDoS-Guard aren’t themselves DDoSing KF, though. They are just turning their backs. If KF wanted their continued protection, they could have stopped stalking and harassing people. But they didn’t, so here we are.
And of course I wouldn’t be happy if a website I support were DDoSed. It’s perfectly consistent to celebrate when a murderer gets convicted and be outraged when an innocent person does. There’s a difference between good and bad things!
Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service
#544Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Speech is ingrained in American culture on both aisles of the political spectrum until last 5-10 years. Death threats, fraud, harassment, libel, and other harmful forms of speech have had legal consequences for much longer than that.
then prosecute them, don't let corporate monopolies play judge, jury, and executioner
Why should I not be allowed to use my freedom of speech to ask a company to not do business with someone doing something nasty?
Why should that business not be allowed to use their freedom of association to not do business with those folks?
Why is legal action the only acceptable approach to bad actions? Direct action, pressure, and boycots have worked well against injustices in the past; see sit-ins in the American south during the civil rights era as an example.
Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service
#545Earlier quoted context omitted.
You do realize that this wasn't simply about "discourse", yes? This was about active doxxing and swatting of real living human beings. Being transphobic might be just an (ignorant) opinion, but actively working to harm people needs to be shut right down.
SWATing and harassment is explicitly prohibited on Kiwi Farms, and the site owner aggressively removes such content. "Doxing" is for better or worse not a crime, and is practiced by the very same people currently crying for Kiwi Farms' deletion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiwi_Farms
I think maybe you should read this.
Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service
#546Earlier quoted context omitted.
(I'm inferring that your comment is supporting KiwiFarms. If this is not the case, you should probably re-word it.) > salem witch trials du jour so fervently pushed by certain groups of people Hunting trans people and pushing them to suicide sounds like much more of a witch trial to me. > forcing their narrative and banning any discourse that they don't like Telling to people to kill themselves is "discourse" that we…
Supporting Kiwi Farms right to exist is not the same as supporting the content.
You’re right, but they’re related.
KF has a right to exist. But if they want to be part of society at large, society owes them no great debt; they are welcome to remain insular and talk about their bullshit amongst themselves, or even host their own CDN mitigation service if nobody wants to work with them, but nobody is required to give them a platform to spew their odious content.
Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service
#547The thing is, it's hard to feel bad for kiwifarms. They seem to be one of the worst sites there are. But freedom of speech/expression/opinions aren't about defending those who speech/expression/opinions you like but all of them. Personally, I think the site being shutdown is a good thing. But it's hard to look at the fact a few corporations can remove a website from the internet and think this is good for a free and…
KF is essentially a deniable harassment vector (ie they say 'we don't condone harassment, so please don't harass Random Person* who lives at 123 Name Street and whose phone # is 212-555-1212 and whose email is... (etc)).'
Random Person is typically some very minor e-celeb or individual that finds themselves in the news, as opposed to an accountable official or someone credibly accused of a serious crime.
The point of such harassment is to drive Random Person off the internet and/or out of public life, so arguably it's just censorship-by-intimidation. I can't help noticing that the people who complain about DDOS being internet mobs seem indifferent to the fact that KF is itself an internet mob, and I'd be pretty surprised if most KF members haven't done their own share of raids, DDOS attacks etc.
I personally think DDOS and forum raids are both a part of internet culture, and pretty civilized compared to in-person harassment, swatting etc., and don't agree that everything should be turned into a police/legal matter given the various downsides of that.
Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service
#548Earlier quoted context omitted.
Did you ever watch 12 Angry Men ? There's a scene in that movie where an unabashedly racist man is making his point as loudly and angrily as he can. One by one, all the others in the room turn their backs on him. When only one man is left, that man has a short message for the racist: "Sit down, and don't open your mouth again while I'm here." Nobody puts him in jail. Nobody takes away his right to make a living or hi…
I don't know the entire history here, but my understanding is that KF was a forum where doxing and swatting was openly pervasive. Sounds like a perfect example of society holding a site accountable and producing the correct outcome. There was no government involved, so it's not a "free speech" issue. I always talk about the wild west of the late 90's when the Internet was brand new. My colleagues and I all talked abo…
In terms of SWATing, harassment, and "driving people to suicide" this is a false impression, one that is intentionally spread by the site's detractors. SWATing and harassment is strictly banned on Kiwi Farms. The site owner aggressively removes such posts and cooperates with law enforcement.
The leader of the campaign to take down Kiwi Farms is Keffals, a transsexual Twitch streamer with a large underage audience. Kiwi Farms has documented Keffals’ sexualized interactions with underage members of her community, as well as her history in porn and online interactions with several open pedophiles. Some believe this is why she wants the site nuked.
See archived copy of the Kiwi Farms thread for documentation of Keffals' encouragement of doxing and SWATing, sexual grooming of minors on the “Catboy Ranch” Discord server, and her website which instructs minors on how to secretly obtain and self-dose cross-sex hormones behind parents’ backs:
The sketchy online pharmacy Keffals’ DIY HRT Directory promotes sells cross-sex hormones marketed to children, with holofoil anime lolita box art and labels that say “keep away from parents”:
The medical consequences of a confused child self-dosing puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones outside parental and medical supervision can be sterilizing, irreversible, and lifelong. Keffals promotes the DIY HRT Directory on Twitter and Twitch to a huge audience of underaged viewers.
None of these details about Keffals were mentioned in WaPo or NBC accounts of this story. It is incredibly dismaying to see Keffals doing this to children, well-documented and for the most part out in the open, and realize that no one in the news media cares.
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EDIT: In response to a comment below...
KF's owner refused the New Zealand's government command to remove Brenton Tarrant's manifesto and shooting video. This demand was not backed up by American law. He cooperates with law enforcement requests for information on criminal threats and illegal material posted to Kiwi Farms.
Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service
#549The thing is, it's hard to feel bad for kiwifarms. They seem to be one of the worst sites there are. But freedom of speech/expression/opinions aren't about defending those who speech/expression/opinions you like but all of them. Personally, I think the site being shutdown is a good thing. But it's hard to look at the fact a few corporations can remove a website from the internet and think this is good for a free and…
This has all the hallmarks of an overreaction to a moral panic, not a rational response to the actual evidence. People become incredibly sure of their positions and don't even want to look at the evidence, but to be honest, the evidence doesn't matter, because people won't be persuaded by it anyway given the stress level and strong emotions.
Is the internet a better place without this site? Who knows. But that's not the question we should ask when making censorship decisions, because these panics invariably exaggerate the immediate harms of keeping a site and minimize the longer-term harms of terminating it.
Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service
#550Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't know the entire history here, but my understanding is that KF was a forum where doxing and swatting was openly pervasive. Sounds like a perfect example of society holding a site accountable and producing the correct outcome. There was no government involved, so it's not a "free speech" issue. I always talk about the wild west of the late 90's when the Internet was brand new. My colleagues and I all talked abo…
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