Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service • Hacker News Board

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#641

Post by JumpCrisscross » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 8:00 PM UTC

philippejara wrote: post #336

Kiwifarm's owner statement: https://web.archive.org/web/20220905182626/https://poa.st/no... This whole thing is kinda fascinating, if not extremely scary. After learning about the situation from the last couple threads here and going down the rabbit hole of sources, the future of the internet seems pretty sad... If cloudflare doesn't reinstate the website after dealing with said immediate danger they claimed was the…

> the firefighters will just stop serving said target

I saw a good analogy the other day [1]. Cloudflare is a bartender throwing out a brawler. They called the cops, but nobody is arrested. And while yes, brawling on the streets may be riskier than brawling inside, it’s extreme to insist the brawler be sheltered because their right to brawl overrides others’ physical safety.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32708253

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#642

Post by redeeman » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 8:00 PM UTC

not_a_shill wrote: post #527

redeeman wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

they doxxed a twitter user causing that user to face credible life threats and had to evacuate and go into hiding.. but they are a-okay naturally

How was it determined that the life threats were credible? If they were *actually* credible I'd imagine Keffals is gonna end up dead pretty soon given the escalation of attacks on KF. But they're not credible and nothing will happen.

i would consider it credible when people show up at your house, for one.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#643

Post by OrangeMonkey » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 8:00 PM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #525

ChicagoDave wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know the entire history here, but my understanding is that KF was a forum where doxing and swatting was openly pervasive. Sounds like a perfect example of society holding a site accountable and producing the correct outcome. There was no government involved, so it's not a "free speech" issue. I always talk about the wild west of the late 90's when the Internet was brand new. My colleagues and I all talked abo…

> was no government involved, so it's not a "free speech" issue Nitpick: it is a free speech issue. It’s just not a First Amendment concern. Your broader point stands: rights must balance; it’s perfectly fair for the freedom of assembly to peacefully balance someone freedom of speech.

I agree - you have the right to not go some place where you don't want to be.

You do not have the right to convince a fire department to stop protecting a house so you can burn it down in peace.

To think this situation is anything BUT that is pure hypocrisy.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#644

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 8:01 PM UTC

Animats wrote: post #456

Cloudflare needs to stop terminating weird sites. Here's the Daily Stormer, which Cloudflare cut off some time back, and is now back.[1] It's not much worse than many other right-wing sites. Neo-Nazis have been around since the 1960s, and they've mostly been a joke. As a kid, I walked past the HQ of the American Nazi Party, a small house in Arlington, VA, with a large "White Man Fight - Smash the Black Revolution Now…

[deleted]

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#645

Post by pclmulqdq » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 8:01 PM UTC

1ris wrote: post #430

ALittleLight wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not countable, but vastly more than three. There are civil wars and ethnic cleansing that get organized and supported on Facebook (e.g. Ethiopia and Myanmar). Gang violence and mass murder also get spread on Facebook. Nevermind the harassment and bullying that happens on Facebook, which is, of course, orders of magnitude more than what goes on on KF. It's just not very sensible to think that big companies care a…

Intent is the key ingredient to crime (or other behaviours society does not tolerate). You totally ignore this.

Intent - mens rea in the law - is not about the intent to [commit insert crime here]. It is about the intent to do the thing that resulted in the crime. That is why if you get blackout drunk and drive through a crowd of kids, you get charged with manslaughter: you didn't intend to kill those kids, but you intended to get blackout drunk and drive, which resulted in the death of the kids.

Facebook absolutely would have criminal intent the same way kiwifarms would - in both cases, they intended to serve content from their users.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#646

Post by OrangeMonkey » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 8:01 PM UTC

ivraatiems wrote: post #507

mikl wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DDoS’ing is quite different from just turning your back on someone. It’s more akin to following someone around with a megaphone and shouting over everything they say so no one can hear them. Sure, you might celebrate when that’s done to someone you dislike, but a lot less appealing if you imagine it done to a cause you agree with.

I am not saying people should be allowed to DDoS anyone, including Kiwi Farms, from a legality perspective. Illegal things are still illegal. I am saying that companies which provide protection services shouldn't extend them to Kiwi Farms because they are societally not worth protecting.

Thats right - the fire departments should just stop protecting the houses of people you dislike so folks can burn them down in peace.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#647

Post by not_a_shill » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 8:01 PM UTC

redeeman wrote: post #642

not_a_shill wrote: post #527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How was it determined that the life threats were credible? If they were *actually* credible I'd imagine Keffals is gonna end up dead pretty soon given the escalation of attacks on KF. But they're not credible and nothing will happen.

i would consider it credible when people show up at your house, for one.

Did they commit violence or make any attempt on her life when they were there? Seems like a pretty good time to do it to me if they had intended to do so.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#648

Post by OrangeMonkey » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 8:03 PM UTC

jakelazaroff wrote: post #543

mikl wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DDoS’ing is quite different from just turning your back on someone. It’s more akin to following someone around with a megaphone and shouting over everything they say so no one can hear them. Sure, you might celebrate when that’s done to someone you dislike, but a lot less appealing if you imagine it done to a cause you agree with.

Cloudflare and DDoS-Guard aren’t themselves DDoSing KF, though. They are just turning their backs. If KF wanted their continued protection, they could have stopped stalking and harassing people. But they didn’t, so here we are. And of course I wouldn’t be happy if a website I support were DDoSed. It’s perfectly consistent to celebrate when a murderer gets convicted and be outraged when an innocent person does. There’…

No post body was provided.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#649

Post by hecatoncheires » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 8:03 PM UTC

SoftTalker wrote: post #560

spoonjim wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Chiraqology stuff is wild. People threaten each other on YouTube and then follow through with murder! The only reason it’s not banned is because nobody with power cares what happens to impoverished black kids in Chicago unless they can make money from it.

I think it's worse than that. They aren't banned precisely because people are making money from it.

If Reddit were materialists to that degree then they wouldn't have banned popular gore subs.

It's more likely the sub taps into a vein of black culture that happens to be interwoven with some violence, and Reddit tolerates it because they don't want to be seen as trampling out anything to do with black culture.

Now if there were a sub dedicated to a popular genre of exclusively white musicians who occasionally livestream themselves murdering their white "opps," Reddit would ban it in a heartbeat under their "glorifying violence" ToS policy

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#650

Post by nemo44x » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 8:03 PM UTC

fullstop wrote: post #383

djbebs wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great, my line is people like you. Please disconnect from the internet. See the problem?

I am not asking for any of these people, specifically, to be removed from the internet. I am saying that I support cloudflare banning hosts which specifically target, harass, and doxx specific individuals or communities. I'm not supportive of banning Joshua Moon from the internet. Do you agree that there is a difference here?

Should the Washington Post be banned? Or should their journalist, Taylor Lorenz be banned from Twitter for doxxing the Libs of TikTok person?

We should be consistent and non-arbitrary. There’s so many more examples.