Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service • Hacker News Board

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#261

Post by ratg13 » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 6:08 PM UTC

worldofmatthew wrote: post #53

that_guy_iain wrote: post #45

The thing is, it's hard to feel bad for kiwifarms. They seem to be one of the worst sites there are. But freedom of speech/expression/opinions aren't about defending those who speech/expression/opinions you like but all of them. Personally, I think the site being shutdown is a good thing. But it's hard to look at the fact a few corporations can remove a website from the internet and think this is good for a free and…

Kiwifarms is a downgrade from the others aka its already a slippery slope. Cloudflare and DDOS-Guard are known to protect booters. So, they can in effect decide who is allowed online and who will be DDOS'ed offline by services protected by them. The more website use them, the more power they have to abuse and they are already going down the slippery slope..... Soon even countries will have to decide if Cloudflare and…

A private company having a policy against using their platform to incite violence is not the human rights violation you think it is.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#262

Post by klyrs » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 6:09 PM UTC

nemo44x wrote: post #107

fullstop wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not here to define hate speech, and I think that you'd agree that HN was not designed to encourage and promote hate speech. You absolutely can not say the same thing of Kiwifarms. Let's not be deliberately obtuse here.

There are different degrees, sure. And this place has moderation. But what is the line? Be precise and avoid arbitrary definitions. There are threads here where people call for wealthy peoples heads. Did that cross a line? Could we say it about other people?

> There are threads here where people call for wealthy peoples heads. Did that cross a line? Could we say it about other people?

Are they targeting specific rich people in a dedicated and persistent fashion to the point that said rich persons kill themselves? No, that's not happening. I've seen posts of the type you've described. They're almost always dead/banned/shadowbanned. They're much less frequent than any one of anti-black, anti-gay, anti-jew, or anti-trans comments... which are almost always dead/banned/shadowbanned as well. This site does not remotely compare to KF.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#263

Post by ALittleLight » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 6:09 PM UTC

weare138 wrote: post #215

that_guy_iain wrote: post #45

The thing is, it's hard to feel bad for kiwifarms. They seem to be one of the worst sites there are. But freedom of speech/expression/opinions aren't about defending those who speech/expression/opinions you like but all of them. Personally, I think the site being shutdown is a good thing. But it's hard to look at the fact a few corporations can remove a website from the internet and think this is good for a free and…

3 people are dead because of that site. What they were doing was a crime. Criminal activity is not is not protected free speech. That's like arguing carding and SIM swapping sites are just expressing their right to free speech and should be protected.

Even if that were true, and I think it's pretty doubtful to just attribute a suicide to some people who made fun of or harassed the deceased, it's a criminal or civil matter. If people on that forum committed a crime, let them face the legal penalties. Why should the website be made persona non grata by Internet companies?

How many more are dead from activities on Facebook, Instagram, etc? Why is it that big businesses see no punishment for vastly larger crimes and small communities are harshly dealt with?

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#264

Post by kelseyfrog » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 6:10 PM UTC

kelnos wrote: post #247

drexlspivey wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What doesn’t make sense to me is why is Cloudflare harassed for providing an utility to some bad actors while other traditional providers aren’t? Is Comcast getting any flak for providing internet to the KKK offices? Or their water provider? Is Netflix getting any complains for providing entertainment to terrorists? Or vodafone for mobile connectivity? Why is it different for cloudflare?

I think because some of us look at Internet access or phone service as akin to water or electricity service. You just don't deprive someone of those things. Regarding your Netflix example, I doubt Netflix knows if any particular customer is a terrorist. Having access to a CDN provider isn't in the same "basic rights" league.

I look at having a home and a place to sleep at night as categorically more important than KF having CDN access, but maybe I'm just being weird about stuff.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#265

Post by TazeTSchnitzel » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 6:10 PM UTC

moomin wrote: post #256

tsimionescu wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So why are they not being prosecuted if it was a crime? DDoS is also a crime, and equates to mob justice at best in this case.

You seem to be under the impression most crimes are prosecuted. Very few are, because, amongst many other things, the police do not exist to protect citizens.

Harassment, especially online harassment, is a crime that is especially unlikely to lead to prosecution, also.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#266

Post by aaa_aaa » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 6:10 PM UTC

weare138 wrote: post #215

that_guy_iain wrote: post #45

The thing is, it's hard to feel bad for kiwifarms. They seem to be one of the worst sites there are. But freedom of speech/expression/opinions aren't about defending those who speech/expression/opinions you like but all of them. Personally, I think the site being shutdown is a good thing. But it's hard to look at the fact a few corporations can remove a website from the internet and think this is good for a free and…

3 people are dead because of that site. What they were doing was a crime. Criminal activity is not is not protected free speech. That's like arguing carding and SIM swapping sites are just expressing their right to free speech and should be protected.

This information is hard to believe. How is a forum is responsible? Seriously, has someone hired a hitman or what?

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#267

Post by stepupmakeup » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 6:10 PM UTC

flumpcakes wrote: post #144

Mezzie wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is probably that KF mocks individuals in easy to locate and follow threads. 4-Chan's set up is just too chaotic; proving that 4-Chan is going after a specific person would be...difficult. KF organizes its mocking into easily discoverable forums and threads, which makes it easy for the individuals in question to find all the nastiness. Finding ANYTHING with any kind of historical evidence on 4-Chan is d…

I agree with this. I think the aging-off process on the 4chan boards has probably protected it from a lot of heat. The heinous stuff will be gone and forgotten in a few days but any comments on Kiwifarms remain forever.

Multiple 4chan archives exist, and Google indexes them. Most even have a search function, 4chan doesn't (except for currently active thread titles in catalog)

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#268

Post by pornel » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 6:11 PM UTC

nemo44x wrote: post #107

fullstop wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not here to define hate speech, and I think that you'd agree that HN was not designed to encourage and promote hate speech. You absolutely can not say the same thing of Kiwifarms. Let's not be deliberately obtuse here.

There are different degrees, sure. And this place has moderation. But what is the line? Be precise and avoid arbitrary definitions. There are threads here where people call for wealthy peoples heads. Did that cross a line? Could we say it about other people?

You're falling for the heap paradox: If you remove a grain of sand from a heap, tell precisely at which grain of sand it stops being a heap. You can't? Therefore it's impossible to tell if something is a heap of sand! QED

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#269

Post by kelseyfrog » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 6:11 PM UTC

stale2002 wrote: post #240

breckenedge wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What mob is participating in this DDoS attack? Maybe vigilante justice is a more appropriate term.

Well, seeing as this thread is about a website losing their DDoS protection, it would be whichever criminal mob that the DDoS protection was defending against.

This is just the marketplace of ideas in action. If KF wants to succeed, they can just have better ideas.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#270

Post by cjbgkagh » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 6:11 PM UTC

weare138 wrote: post #215

that_guy_iain wrote: post #45

The thing is, it's hard to feel bad for kiwifarms. They seem to be one of the worst sites there are. But freedom of speech/expression/opinions aren't about defending those who speech/expression/opinions you like but all of them. Personally, I think the site being shutdown is a good thing. But it's hard to look at the fact a few corporations can remove a website from the internet and think this is good for a free and…

3 people are dead because of that site. What they were doing was a crime. Criminal activity is not is not protected free speech. That's like arguing carding and SIM swapping sites are just expressing their right to free speech and should be protected.

I don't know of any SIM swapping sites that have been taken down - I would be happy to be corrected here but there doesn't seem to be a populist fervor demanding it. Aren't there ISIS members on Twitter? There are also people advocating for the industrial scale genital mutilation of babies. I just checked and Purdue Pharma is still online and their cynical campaign of mass murder puts 3 people dead in a very stark perspective. This whack-a-mole approach to de-platforming seems reactionary and very fashion based and not based on coherent set of morals. There seems to be no proportionality. This extrajudicial punishment sounds like a neat solution to a lot of problems but I'm worried about setting precedents that will almost definitely be used against things I care about. Anti-war movements always start out as fringe minority (now casually defined as extremists paroting Russian talking points) and are very undermining to a state that has decided to mobilize its population for war - which leaves me counting down the days until I'm deplatformed.