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Mikhail Gorbachev has died

reuters.com

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Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#831

Post by _8j50 »

the_other wrote: post #704
_8j50 wrote: post #556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was a very human mistake to prioritize politics (people) over essential root-causes (money). I am convinced that for most people, their development years (pre-adolescent) shape them, and for Mikhail, the experiences of his father and maternal grandfather as he witnessed as a child shaped him. He saw a cruel world made by people and tried to fix it, but for humans, the root cause is always superseded by basic nee…

> That was a very human mistake to prioritize politics (people) over essential root-causes (money). I guarantee you that people existed before money, and that people create(d) money. People are the root cause.

But you have to feed and shelter people properly before trying to change them.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#832

Post by vintermann »

brnt wrote: post #570
koheripbal wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The communist system is responsible for that, not Gorbachev. Centralized gov't controlled economies create corruption which results in ultimate economic collapse.

All governments create corruption; centalized systems just have zero checks and balances.

"Checks and balances" mean nothing unless you specify who's checking who. System where the military keeps a check on the president, or the king keeps a check on parliament, aren't really much better than the "checker" being in charge all the time. And systems based on mutual checking tend to just reel from one constitutional crisis to another.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#833

Post by simonh »

nivenkos wrote: post #753
gjulianm wrote: post #733

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But here in Europe we've had 25% of our savings and purchasing power destroyed almost overnight, for a conflict that really has nothing to do with us (CIS borders and nationalism after the USSR). Very weird to say those things - Inflation isn't just caused by the invasion. - Inflation is at ~9%, not enough for 25% purchasing power loss. - The conflict has a lot of things to do with Europe. Since when is Ukraine not…

The Euro has also crashed 20% in a year though. That's a massive loss in purchasing power considering most things are sold in USD (including oil). We didn't intervene in Armenia or Georgia, there's not much difference here.

The fact is we should have intervened in Armenia and Georgia. We should have intervened in Syria, at least to some extent. We should have imposed crushing sanctions on Russia after the annexation of Crimea in 2014. The fact that we did not is a causal direct line to this invasion.

Since the gulf war the west has become averse to foreign adventurism. I understand that and why, but it's misconceived. Washing our hands of the rest of the world and letting countries like Iran and Russia (and Iraq under Saddam Hussein) do whatever they like doesn't work. It comes back to bite us every single time.

Even if we say it's not our problem, it's not our responsibility, it always comes back and hurts us and our direct economic, political and humanitarian interests again and again. It leads to things like the rape of Kuwait and 9/11.

Being fully engaged internationally is expensive in money and lives, it's messy, it's morally compromising. It's also unavoidable. We are part of the world and can't deny responsibility for playing our part in it. Or rather we can, but at a heavy price to ourselves and others.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#834

Post by lenkite »

hackerlight wrote: post #550
idlewords wrote: post #61

Gorbachev secured his place in history by what he didn't do. While never endorsing the end of the eastern bloc, he made it clear beginning in the late 1980's that unlike his predecessors, he would not oppose democratic reforms in Eastern Europe by force. To general astonishment, he kept this promise, and with the regrettable exception of Lithuania this commitment to not repeating the crimes of his predecessors is Gor…

From everything I've read about him, he was a true liberal and egalitarian. How does someone like that rise up the ranks of an authoritarian USSR in the first place? Did he hide his beliefs and present as just a competent bureaucrat until he got to the top?

No doubt the opinions of Americans here on HN will do a swift 180 once they realize Gorbachev supported the annexation of Crimea and that he condemned the growing NATO presence in eastern europe.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-crimea-gorbachev-...

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#835

Post by rags2riches »

ajvs wrote: post #803
rags2riches wrote: post #759

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Millions of Europeans in nations bordering Russia disagrees. This conflict is all about us. We'll take the economic troubles and the cold winters as they come. We can still see clearly that we're not freezing in a bomb shelter or trench, as the Ukranians are on our behalf. Take your neutrality and what-abouts and stuff them.

Ah yes let's keep funding them to throw their lives away for us in a war they can't win, that's certainly the more morally respectable position.

The Ukranians are free to surrender to Russia should they want to. But the decision is theirs. As long as they want our support I say we are obligated to provide it.

I'd also recommend you to be careful with predictions on the outcome of wars.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#836

Post by Ygg2 »

mvc wrote: post #740
nivenkos wrote: post #731

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not pro-Russian. But here in Europe we've had 25% of our savings and purchasing power destroyed almost overnight, for a conflict that really has nothing to do with us (CIS borders and nationalism after the USSR). Why can't we just be neutral? We didn't do this for Georgia's claim in Ossetia or Armenia's claim with Azerbaijan (both similar scenarios), or the Iraq-Iran war, etc.

> for a conflict that really has nothing to do with us This is so wrong. Where do you think all the disinformation comes from? The rise of far-right parties across Europe. The attacks on democracy. Putin has been waging war against us (albeit a new kind of war) for many years. It is time to fight back if we value democracy at all.

Damn that Putin is both very weak (his Country has GDP of Texas while having way more people), and absolute mastermind organizing far right as some kind of pauper Lex Luthor, on a shoestring budget.

Disclaimer: Western troubles are features of capitalism, they provide the fuel, even if Putin is the one to throw the cigarette butt.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#837

Post by Ygg2 »

qikInNdOutReply wrote: post #781
nivenkos wrote: post #730

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, like the Trail Of Tears in the USA, etc. But what do you do now? You can't just get the Tatars back, even if Crimea were made independent.

Of course you can. If jews can move to israel, tartars can return from anywhere.

> jews can move to israel

That's been going... Swimmingly for everyone involved. No violation of human rights, whatsoever.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#838

Post by magic_quotes »

SlavikCA wrote: post #70

As the Russian, I'm of the opinion that Gorbachev is traitor. I hate communism, so it's good that he helped us to get rid of that. But why getting rid of communism had to include letting Americans to take reign in many government agencies of Russia? What would be your opinion of US president, if he goes to to retire in Russia? I'm reading some Russian news site, and almost universally Gorbachev is hated by Russians.

As a yet another filthy Russian, I don't understand all this eagerness to give people "traitor" (enemy of the people, 5th column and so on) labels. Especially since this is pretty much the favorite communist/putinist activity. This is not a healthy mindset. At some point we'll have to admit different people might have different opinions on running the country.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#839

Post by danbruc »

caskstrength wrote: post #799
danbruc wrote: post #789

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just read the entire address by Putin [1] after the invasion started - it's all about NATO expansion, historical borders or something along that lines make no real appearance in the entire thing. I know that he supposedly said things more in line with your point on other occasions but I never came across something that convincingly provided support for this point of view. Can you provide sources? [1] https://www.bl…

Here you go https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Historical_Unity_of_Rus...

I read the entire thing [1], well I just skimmed the historical section until the 20th century. I do not see how this can be read as Ukraine is part of Russia end must be conquered back.

For the current situation the most relevant part is probably the one dealing with the recent history, say the fall of the USSR or maybe even only past 2014. Unfortunately I am in no position to judge what is laid out and reading up on all the events would probably take weeks and figuring out the actual truth might still be quite hard.

[1] http://www.en.kremlin.ru/misc/66182

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#840

Post by hk__2 »

kenned3 wrote: post #166
hk__2 wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author of the joke doesn’t really matter here; the point is that it’s funny, period. I’m not sure how you can see a mockery of any country in a joke that would work with literally any important person in any country.

Comedy is subjective. Try telling a sexually charged joke at your place of employment and see what happens. World leaders freely slandering other countries like this is shameful, and not what you expect from a "world leader".

There’s nothing slandering here. As I wrote above, the joke could work with literally anyone.
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