Mikhail Gorbachev has died • Hacker News Board

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#141

Post by AdamJacobMuller » Tue, Aug 30, 2022, 9:42 PM UTC

Apocryphon wrote: post #88

hotpotamus wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Republicans have long said that the federal government is structurally incompetent and unable to effectively administer a large country. They made a convincing argument with their performance in Iraq and Afghanistan, and I doubt Russia would have been much different.

That was a very different situation, those were states that were militarily invaded and then occupied by American forces, who were involved in reconstructing countries devastated by war.

I'm not sure the average Russian would have seen the situation much differently.

Look at the people today who decry chinese investment in the US economy? I'm not even saying those people are wrong.

All it takes is for one person or group in the country to poke us enough to the point where we feel the need to strengthen our security posture there (read: add more troops) and then some terrible situation like Abu Ghraib completely destroys any credibility we have with the local population and it just spirals into disaster.

I simply have no faith left in our government's ability to execute even a completely peaceful operation like the marshall plan (and similarly what we did in Japan).

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#142

Post by hk__2 » Tue, Aug 30, 2022, 9:42 PM UTC

kenned3 wrote: post #89

ipnon wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me tell you why I think this is an inappropriate comment: The point of it seems not to be collaboratively extending the line of thought proposed by the original post or the parent comment, but to make the parent commenter feel some kind of personal shame or stupidity. Good commenting is more like a team sport than a martial art.

So like telling "jokes" at Russia's expense by a man of questionable ethics? what is the point of his joke, if not to mock another country? The OP posted a quote, and i posted one too?

The author of the joke doesn’t really matter here; the point is that it’s funny, period. I’m not sure how you can see a mockery of any country in a joke that would work with literally any important person in any country.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#143

Post by eurasiantiger » Tue, Aug 30, 2022, 9:43 PM UTC

Beltalowda wrote: post #86

duxup wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The locals in power have to want to do it too. As soon as enough don’t want it, it is over. I’m skeptical of the idea that you can impose Democracy.

You can't impose democracy, but if democracy and associated ideas such as the free market spectacularly fails the people – as it did in the 90s – then that certainly doesn't help. We probably could have done a thing or two to make it fail less . Would that have made a meaningful difference? Hard to say for sure, but it would have been worth to try.

Certainly the west could have done more to prevent corruption and money laundering in western banks, but the opportunities were too lucrative and refusal too dangerous.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#144

Post by avmich » Tue, Aug 30, 2022, 9:43 PM UTC

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #56

flavius29663 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He did. It's just that leftists in the US won't accept that and pretend that the Cold War just "ended" one day, because of the goodwill of the Russians, not because the US policy forced them into bankruptcy.

> not because the US policy forced them into bankruptcy what?! It was pretty much the USSR policies that forced them into bankrupcy.... as it did in every other socialist state. source: am from another former socialist country, that also doesn't exist anymore.

US definitely were helping to bankrupt... but then just before the putsch in August 1991 USA got really worried that USSR will split in parts, and the nightmare of managing relations with multiple nuclear states led them to support Gorbachev and USSR, until it actually broke. Then the work of gathering all nuclear armaments into one state - Russia - was going on, along with support of Russian scientists (lest them go to places like Iran and help them with their projects). That's one of the big reasons we have ISS now...

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#145

Post by jorblumesea » Tue, Aug 30, 2022, 9:43 PM UTC

lapcat wrote: post #22

The United States didn't do enough to help Russia transition to democracy in the 1990s. There was no "Marshall Plan" after the Cold War like there was after World War II. This was a huge mistake, and we see the consequences now, with Russia having turned back toward totalitarianism and imperialism. Sadly, it seems that Gorbachev's efforts were mostly for naught. But it was courageous at the time to open up the Soviet…

If you study geopolitics and history, you might come to the conclusion that Russia was never going to be a democratic ally of the West regardless of how much economic aid they were given.

Russia at the end of the cold war had geopolitical imperatives such as a warm water ports, buffer states and desire for Russian hegemony that would have existed regardless of their economic state. They also have a long, long history of authoritarianism.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#146

Post by hotpotamus » Tue, Aug 30, 2022, 9:43 PM UTC

seanw444 wrote: post #119

hotpotamus wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Republicans have long said that the federal government is structurally incompetent and unable to effectively administer a large country. They made a convincing argument with their performance in Iraq and Afghanistan, and I doubt Russia would have been much different.

Republicans? Man, some people just can't get past the "my party vs your party" mindset.

Federalism is one of the core principles of the Republican party. I don't believe that's a controversial statement of fact, but I also didn't think vaccines or the shape of the Earth were controversial subjects, so I never know these days.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#147

Post by zdragnar » Tue, Aug 30, 2022, 9:44 PM UTC

markdown wrote: post #110

wnevets wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The United States didn't do enough to help Russia transition to democracy in the 1990s. Some how people manage to blame everything on the United States.

The US manages to meddle and create problems all over the world. A small part of the US footprint: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_r...

Ah yes, the world was such a utopia before the US.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#148

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Aug 30, 2022, 9:44 PM UTC

giantrobot wrote: post #117

SlavikCA wrote: post #70

As the Russian, I'm of the opinion that Gorbachev is traitor. I hate communism, so it's good that he helped us to get rid of that. But why getting rid of communism had to include letting Americans to take reign in many government agencies of Russia? What would be your opinion of US president, if he goes to to retire in Russia? I'm reading some Russian news site, and almost universally Gorbachev is hated by Russians.

> But why getting rid of communism had to include letting Americans to take reign in many government agencies of Russia? Wow. Such a claim. I'm sure you have mountains of examples of this happening just one time.

[deleted]

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#149

Post by LudwigNagasena » Tue, Aug 30, 2022, 9:45 PM UTC

anon_123g987 wrote: post #118

avmich wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was the absence of Marshall plan happened because of the West or because of Russia's decision? > Sadly, it seems that Gorbachev's efforts were mostly for naught. Russia today is a faint ghost of the former USSR. The events in Eastern Europe show that to an extent.

> Russia today is a faint ghost of the former USSR. Russia was only a part of the USSR. Their main problem is that they, too, believe that they are the former USSR, and try to restore the former glory. Well, the state of the war in Ukraine (another part of the former USSR) clearly shows how wrong they are.

That has little to do with the USSR as those lands were conquered by the Russian Empire in 18th century from the Ottomans.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#150

Post by eej71 » Tue, Aug 30, 2022, 9:45 PM UTC

lapcat wrote: post #22

The United States didn't do enough to help Russia transition to democracy in the 1990s. There was no "Marshall Plan" after the Cold War like there was after World War II. This was a huge mistake, and we see the consequences now, with Russia having turned back toward totalitarianism and imperialism. Sadly, it seems that Gorbachev's efforts were mostly for naught. But it was courageous at the time to open up the Soviet…

I'm not sure what special powers you think the United States would have that could change the course of an entire culture that still seeems drawn to the strong-man archtype. These kinds of transformations have to come from within.