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Mikhail Gorbachev has died

reuters.com

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Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#721

Post by notahacker »

nivenkos wrote: post #705
me_me_me wrote: post #694

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Imagine if Trump had really been a Russian agent and had returned Alaska to Russia, would you expect all subsequent administrations to just respect that it is Russian now? Huh? You mean: Imagine if Russia just annexed Alaska after they sent their green men over-there, to disrupt and takeover the region. Since when Ukraine just gave up on crimea? They were bullied off it and same with donbass. Their military was wea…

No, I was referring to when Khrushchev just arbitrarily transferred the Crimea to the Ukrainian SSR. It had been independent / Tatar before, and Russification meant it was mainly populated by Russians. The issue is that Ukraine refuses to allow for the self-determination of the Crimea and Donbass since Euromaidan. Why can't they just allow internationally managed referendums to take place? This would be far better th…

> The issue is that Ukraine refuses to allow for the self-determination of the Crimea and Donbass since Euromaidan. Why can't they just allow internationally managed referendums to take place?

The internationally managed referendums Russia has never asked for and would never permit?

Arguments that "real issue" with Russia repeatedly invading its smaller neighbours is that one of the neighbours won't grant something never asked for are not made in good faith.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#722

Post by daminimal »

nivenkos wrote: post #705
me_me_me wrote: post #694

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Imagine if Trump had really been a Russian agent and had returned Alaska to Russia, would you expect all subsequent administrations to just respect that it is Russian now? Huh? You mean: Imagine if Russia just annexed Alaska after they sent their green men over-there, to disrupt and takeover the region. Since when Ukraine just gave up on crimea? They were bullied off it and same with donbass. Their military was wea…

No, I was referring to when Khrushchev just arbitrarily transferred the Crimea to the Ukrainian SSR. It had been independent / Tatar before, and Russification meant it was mainly populated by Russians. The issue is that Ukraine refuses to allow for the self-determination of the Crimea and Donbass since Euromaidan. Why can't they just allow internationally managed referendums to take place? This would be far better th…

Russification does not give _any_ right over land. Russification was a crime of the Soviet Union and should be treated as such.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#723

Post by golergka »

KingOfCoders wrote: post #642
euroderf wrote: post #627

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to pick a fight, but I feel it's important then to note that it was not Reagan who "won" the Cold War. It was Gorbachev, who had the political courage (and idealism) to take the leap.

The people who "won" the cold war are those Eastern countries that had been occupied by Russia for 45 years and fought for their freedom in Prague, Budapest and especially in Gdańsk.

Russia has also won the cold war, as it was, too, liberated from cumminst tyranny and quaity of life and freedom have raised significantly as a consequence. Sadly, this consequence took time to take place, which made the causal relationship not obvious for many Russians, and a lot of what Russia has won over this liberation has been gradually lost since Putin came into power.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#724

Post by notahacker »

least wrote: post #718
qsort wrote: post #667

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> War of Northern Aggression Rarely if ever I criticize naming conventions, but this definitely does seem the right moment to do so.

If you are to suppose that the Confederate States of America were a legitimate, sovereign government of the Southern states, the term "War of Northern Aggression" makes more sense. They did not threaten to secede from the United States, they did secede from it. The United States taking action to take back control of the southern states could be viewed as "Northern Aggression." Granted, it is a little odd considering…

It doesn't really make sense in that context. The Thirteen Colonies seceded from Great Britain, something not in dispute even in the UK. Great Britain sent troops into the United States to oppose the secession. But it's not referred to as "the War of British Aggression".

The only sense that singling out "Northern Aggression" makes sense in is perpetuating the myth that the slaveowners were the real victims.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#725

Post by daminimal »

qwytw wrote: post #656
Nanana909 wrote: post #499

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s pretty evident none of them worked. How is that evident, though? It’s actually pretty clear that the quality of life has drastically improved in most of these countries. Of *course* you can always find some group who is suffering. But there is no way I would want to live in 1980s Poland, Estonia, etc vs 2020. For example: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SL.UEM.TOTL.ZS?location... The continued existence o…

It has improved significantly in the last 20 years. But the 90’s were as bad if not worse than in Russia in most places. And Russia was on an upwards trend until the 2010’s as well, e.g. if we look at average income levels the Baltic states only overtook Russia around ~2014. And if we only focus ex-USSR countries, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia seem more like the exceptions than the rule. Basically every single countr…

So, every country that did not do better did worse? Sounds about right.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#726

Post by arethuza »

euroderf wrote: post #627
idlewords wrote: post #61

Gorbachev secured his place in history by what he didn't do. While never endorsing the end of the eastern bloc, he made it clear beginning in the late 1980's that unlike his predecessors, he would not oppose democratic reforms in Eastern Europe by force. To general astonishment, he kept this promise, and with the regrettable exception of Lithuania this commitment to not repeating the crimes of his predecessors is Gor…

Not to pick a fight, but I feel it's important then to note that it was not Reagan who "won" the Cold War. It was Gorbachev, who had the political courage (and idealism) to take the leap.

I believe it was summed up quite nicely as:

“A strange game. The only winning move is not to play.”

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#727

Post by lnxg33k1 »

wiseowise wrote: post #612
thriftwy wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess it feels so good when you get all the benefits and somebody else foots the failures. Well, 2022 is a year of boomerang.

Boomerang of what? West economies are stronger than ever. They survived COVID for 2 years and now survive bootleg Cold War while Russia is spinning into 90s again.

As EU citizen, stronger? Give it next election to see where the friends of America are going

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#728

Post by nivenkos »

notahacker wrote: post #721
nivenkos wrote: post #705

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I was referring to when Khrushchev just arbitrarily transferred the Crimea to the Ukrainian SSR. It had been independent / Tatar before, and Russification meant it was mainly populated by Russians. The issue is that Ukraine refuses to allow for the self-determination of the Crimea and Donbass since Euromaidan. Why can't they just allow internationally managed referendums to take place? This would be far better th…

> The issue is that Ukraine refuses to allow for the self-determination of the Crimea and Donbass since Euromaidan. Why can't they just allow internationally managed referendums to take place? The internationally managed referendums Russia has never asked for and would never permit? Arguments that "real issue" with Russia repeatedly invading its smaller neighbours is that one of the neighbours won't grant something n…

I'm not pro-Russia either, I just don't understand why we're completely destroying our economies for a conflict that has nothing to do with us (post-USSR border division and nationalism).

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#729

Post by ptr »

pastacacioepepe wrote: post #700
wiseowise wrote: post #614

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Instead NATO kept expanding east... You mean Eastern countries wanted to join NATO.

Not how it works. NATO is invite only.

Sweden and Finland asked to join NATO as a response to the Russian aggression. NATO then invited Sweden and Finland.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#730

Post by nivenkos »

daminimal wrote: post #722
nivenkos wrote: post #705

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I was referring to when Khrushchev just arbitrarily transferred the Crimea to the Ukrainian SSR. It had been independent / Tatar before, and Russification meant it was mainly populated by Russians. The issue is that Ukraine refuses to allow for the self-determination of the Crimea and Donbass since Euromaidan. Why can't they just allow internationally managed referendums to take place? This would be far better th…

Russification does not give _any_ right over land. Russification was a crime of the Soviet Union and should be treated as such.

Yeah, like the Trail Of Tears in the USA, etc.

But what do you do now? You can't just get the Tatars back, even if Crimea were made independent.

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