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Mikhail Gorbachev has died

reuters.com

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Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#731

Post by nivenkos »

poushkar wrote: post #711
nivenkos wrote: post #689

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

Here we come again with the "Ukrainian nationalism" and "coup". So boring. Will you ever update your guide on Russian propaganda? Even the russian troll factory stopped using these arguments like 2 years ago.

I'm not pro-Russian.

But here in Europe we've had 25% of our savings and purchasing power destroyed almost overnight, for a conflict that really has nothing to do with us (CIS borders and nationalism after the USSR).

Why can't we just be neutral? We didn't do this for Georgia's claim in Ossetia or Armenia's claim with Azerbaijan (both similar scenarios), or the Iraq-Iran war, etc.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#732

Post by caskstrength »

nivenkos wrote: post #689
rixrax wrote: post #680

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the dissolution of soviet union is not over yet. You can see this nowhere as clearly as in russias attack on Ukraine[0] where imperialistic russians that dream of restoring the glory and borders of soviet union[1] are waging their genocidal war. Meanwhile they are using hunger[2] and energy as their weapons against the rest of the world[3]. If the russians are not stopped in Ukraine, then there is no reason to be…

Quoted post unavailable.

What do all these trite propaganda lines about "UkRaiNian NazIs oPpreSsing RuzZiAn-sPeaKinG pEoPleS iN teh EaSt!!1" have to do with Russian army trying to occupy Kyiv or annex Kherson (while indiscriminately murdering civilians in the process)? Do you need my help to verify on the map that those places are not in eastern Ukraine or in Crimea?

P.S. I'm a Russian-speaking Ukrainian.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#733

Post by gjulianm »

nivenkos wrote: post #731
poushkar wrote: post #711

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here we come again with the "Ukrainian nationalism" and "coup". So boring. Will you ever update your guide on Russian propaganda? Even the russian troll factory stopped using these arguments like 2 years ago.

I'm not pro-Russian. But here in Europe we've had 25% of our savings and purchasing power destroyed almost overnight, for a conflict that really has nothing to do with us (CIS borders and nationalism after the USSR). Why can't we just be neutral? We didn't do this for Georgia's claim in Ossetia or Armenia's claim with Azerbaijan (both similar scenarios), or the Iraq-Iran war, etc.

> But here in Europe we've had 25% of our savings and purchasing power destroyed almost overnight, for a conflict that really has nothing to do with us (CIS borders and nationalism after the USSR).

Very weird to say those things

- Inflation isn't just caused by the invasion.

- Inflation is at ~9%, not enough for 25% purchasing power loss.

- The conflict has a lot of things to do with Europe. Since when is Ukraine not an european country? Even if you mean just the EU, both Ukraine and Russia border several EU countries, and Russia has threatened some of them.

- "Remaining neutral" doesn't mean "free of consequences".

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#734

Post by 0dayz »

_8j50 wrote: post #556
publicola1990 wrote: post #528

Say what you will, he seemed a politician very keen on world peace, beyond mere lip service. He understood the lacunae of the Soviet system and genuinely set about to reform them. But ultimately it was Ethno-national interests in Ukraine, Baltics and Central Asian republics along with the rise of opportunist power-grabbers like Yeltsin that did him and Soviet Union in. And perhaps his own reluctance to follow the Chi…

That was a very human mistake to prioritize politics (people) over essential root-causes (money). I am convinced that for most people, their development years (pre-adolescent) shape them, and for Mikhail, the experiences of his father and maternal grandfather as he witnessed as a child shaped him. He saw a cruel world made by people and tried to fix it, but for humans, the root cause is always superseded by basic nee…

In general I agree, but the key point is that that is only true until either those basic needs are meet or the promise was shown to be a lie.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#735

Post by arethuza »

nivenkos wrote: post #731
poushkar wrote: post #711

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here we come again with the "Ukrainian nationalism" and "coup". So boring. Will you ever update your guide on Russian propaganda? Even the russian troll factory stopped using these arguments like 2 years ago.

I'm not pro-Russian. But here in Europe we've had 25% of our savings and purchasing power destroyed almost overnight, for a conflict that really has nothing to do with us (CIS borders and nationalism after the USSR). Why can't we just be neutral? We didn't do this for Georgia's claim in Ossetia or Armenia's claim with Azerbaijan (both similar scenarios), or the Iraq-Iran war, etc.

I'm reminded of a statement by a former UK prime minister describing a conflict as:

"a quarrel in a far away country, between people of whom we know nothing.”

I think we all know how that ended up.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#736

Post by joachim4 »

elchin wrote: post #258
hunglee2 wrote: post #15

Hard to know the man behind the image, but Gorbachev seemed like a fundamentally decent man, who was perhaps over his head at a moment no one could be reasonably be expected to prepare for. Still, with him at the helm of the sinking ship, chaos and conflict was at least avoided, or at least deferred, and for that we should be thankful. RIP

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_January

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_9_tragedy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_Events_(Lithuania)

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#737

Post by simonh »

claudiawerner wrote: post #702
simonh wrote: post #679

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn’t matter what you call it, capital is the same thing regardless of its ownership structure. Let’s call it woogum and the woogumist system if you like, that doesn’t change anything. Capitalism is commonly defined as a system of economics based on private ownership, and associated rights such as free exchange of labour, free markets, etc as against state ownership. Systems based on cartels, oligarchies and cor…

You're just restating your definition of what you define capital to be and my point is that some qualified people disagree on that definition. You can call your definition 'woogum', but the fact is that there's no book called Woogum, yet there is probably a book called 'Property' and I'm certain there's a famous one called 'Capital'. 'As against state ownership is an interesting bit to use as part of the definition,…

I think it's an unfortunate historical accident that what we generally refer to as capitalism, the mainstream economic system in place in the western world and in fact most of the world, has that name without a distinguishing qualifier. That's why I don't object to the term state capitalism, which is a much more descriptive term.

Ideally what we call capitalism would be consistently referred to as something like free market capitalism, or private property capitalism. I know those terms exist and are used, but very often we refer to the mainstream western system as just capitalism without qualification. So people will blame 'capitalism' for things like poverty or exploitation in the west, as though such things are completely unknown in alternative economic systems.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#738

Post by [deleted] »

me_me_me wrote: post #696
gizmo385 wrote: post #671

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the War of Northern Aggression That’s some choice phrasing there. Mind explaining this framing? Pretty sure the only people I’ve seen use this phrasing were people who thought the confederacy and slavery were good things

As non US person i was scratching my head about what exactly that meant.

[deleted]

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#739

Post by blueflow »

me_me_me wrote: post #694
nivenkos wrote: post #689

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

> Imagine if Trump had really been a Russian agent and had returned Alaska to Russia, would you expect all subsequent administrations to just respect that it is Russian now? Huh? You mean: Imagine if Russia just annexed Alaska after they sent their green men over-there, to disrupt and takeover the region. Since when Ukraine just gave up on crimea? They were bullied off it and same with donbass. Their military was wea…

I think Alaska is a bad example to pick since it has been Russian before.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#740

Post by mvc »

nivenkos wrote: post #731
poushkar wrote: post #711

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here we come again with the "Ukrainian nationalism" and "coup". So boring. Will you ever update your guide on Russian propaganda? Even the russian troll factory stopped using these arguments like 2 years ago.

I'm not pro-Russian. But here in Europe we've had 25% of our savings and purchasing power destroyed almost overnight, for a conflict that really has nothing to do with us (CIS borders and nationalism after the USSR). Why can't we just be neutral? We didn't do this for Georgia's claim in Ossetia or Armenia's claim with Azerbaijan (both similar scenarios), or the Iraq-Iran war, etc.

> for a conflict that really has nothing to do with us

This is so wrong. Where do you think all the disinformation comes from? The rise of far-right parties across Europe. The attacks on democracy. Putin has been waging war against us (albeit a new kind of war) for many years. It is time to fight back if we value democracy at all.

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